Treliving on the Fan

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But isn't that crux of the 121 page argument?

Some are going out of their way to make excuses which is completely balanced out by some that want to blame every thing on the GM.

I don't see the job as a 100% position. It's like commodity trading. You have to be right more often than wrong, and manage your losses well so you end up up overall.

His gamble was on Monahan and Gaudreau and it failed. If you see that as a firing offence you are certainly going to want him gone. But I didn't see a lot of posters suggesting Monahan and Gaudreau were going to fall off the face of the earth 18 months ago ... I know I certainly didn't see it coming. And with that I wouldn't fire him for it.

He gambled on Hamonic and failed as well as I will always go back to that trade as a turning point of when things started going downhill for Brad. A 1st and two 2nd round picks for a guy that few teams were even interested in him as a free agent is a massive miscalculation. This team would look a lot better today with Noah Dobson and the two players they could have picked with the 2nd rounders. Simply inexcusable asset management.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But isn't that crux of the 121 page argument?

Some are going out of their way to make excuses which is completely balanced out by some that want to blame every thing on the GM.

I don't see the job as a 100% position. It's like commodity trading. You have to be right more often than wrong, and manage your losses well so you end up up overall.

His gamble was on Monahan and Gaudreau and it failed. If you see that as a firing offence you are certainly going to want him gone. But I didn't see a lot of posters suggesting Monahan and Gaudreau were going to fall off the face of the earth 18 months ago ... I know I certainly didn't see it coming. And with that I wouldn't fire him for it.

It's not necessarily about falling off the face of the earth, it was about the pretty consistently demonstrated idea that they were not going to be the ones to get it done when it mattered. This is something that has been discussed on this site quite a bit in the last few years. Jiri has been hammering the players for multiple seasons, and rightfully so. They've never stepped up when it mattered, they both have incredibly flawed games. This isn't something that just appeared in Covid season. This season is just the next notch up on the volume knob. He gambled on a core that didn't really give a good reason to gamble on them and now it's essentially pushed us to the brink.

That doesn't warrant the opportunity to try to dig his way out imo.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think he hoped for rebounds from the top 3 scorers, the same production from Tkachuk, and that Mangiapane and Dube would take a step. He probably expected more out of Leivo and maybe Simon.

In other words, he was banking on wishful thinking.

Bold strategy, Cotton. Shocking that it didn’t work out.

[Rollin22x]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He gambled on Hamonic and failed as well as I will always go back to that trade as a turning point of when things started going downhill for Brad. A 1st and two 2nd round picks for a guy that few teams were even interested in him as a free agent is a massive miscalculation. This team would look a lot better today with Noah Dobson and the two players they could have picked with the 2nd rounders. Simply inexcusable asset management.

I thought Hamonic was one of the few right handed D available then.
Toronto made an offer and they were turned down. There were lots of rumors that he could go to the Jets (Buf was out), the Oilers and the Canucks. His contract was only 3.8M for 3 years. Many thought he would put Calgary over the top as far as defense.

[RedHawk12]

This team has been banking on wishful thinking for years and years now and I really hate it. I hate the idea of "get in the playoffs and anything can happen", but it's an approach that I think ownership and a good chunk of the fan base have accepted. It's the mindset that have made this team a middle of the road team for so long.

It's obvious to point to the Hamonic trade as a turning point, but I look further back to the ramifications of the Hartley run and the Hamilton trade as ultimately detrimental to what this core could have accomplished. The Hartley run made management and fanbase believe this team was more than what it is and the subsequent trades and awful UFA signings cemented our mediocre status.

We should have drafted Barzal/Connor/Chabot, waited for our team to inevitably fall back down to earth the next year and get another top 10 pick. I don't think this is an "in hindsight" argument. Management and ownership have taken so many shortcuts in our rebuilds. Ultimately it's their job to recognize what is in the long-term best interest of this team and they have been brutal at doing that. But I guess their approach sell tickets so they probably don't care.

[neo45]

The rebuild officially ended when Brad either

a) traded a first for Hamilton or

b) when he traded next years first for Hamonic

Either way it was over-zealous on his part, he overrated his team and they missed playoffs the next season. He got good value with the Hamilton trade which may have made him overconfident when he traded for Hamonic, but his ultimate un-doing will be how much he fell in love with his mediocre teams.

Who trades their unprotected first after you just squeaked into the playoffs and got swept?

[Flamesforever99]

Why is this cheap #$%$# not fired yet?

[Bonded]

Hamilton trade still fit into rebuilding. The Hamonic trade sucks in hindsight for sure though.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

That's not entirely true. The Leivo signing in particular was one that generally received wide praise as a good addition.
Nordstrom/Simon I always viewed as 12/13 type forwards and rather inconsequential.
The problem is the top forwards falling off the map totally.

Leivo should have just been a savvy contingency plan, not plan A for our top line

But the reality is right wing was a major issue for our team this off season and Brad’s plan to address that was to move our best option to center and backfill by taking flyers on guys making league minimum or close

The obsession with moving Lindholm to center is strange to me. It’s neutered the top line and we already had a good second line with Backlund. So logic being gut the top line to marginally improve the third? I don’t know but it’s a failure

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Hamilton trade still fit into rebuilding. The Hamonic trade sucks in hindsight for sure though.

Fair enough, he was young and Treliving knew the pick was #15


But trading an unknown pick for Hamonic is a definite end to any rebuild

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He gambled on Hamonic and failed as well as I will always go back to that trade as a turning point of when things started going downhill for Brad. A 1st and two 2nd round picks for a guy that few teams were even interested in him as a free agent is a massive miscalculation. This team would look a lot better today with Noah Dobson and the two players they could have picked with the 2nd rounders. Simply inexcusable asset management.

I don't recall there being massive disagreement on CP about that trade at the time.

Everyone bats 100% in hindsight.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

In other words, he was banking on wishful thinking.

Bold strategy, Cotton. Shocking that it didn’t work out.

As opposed to what, if he assumes Johnny and Monahan don't improve. IMO all you can do is start an earlier tank. There's no fix to the lack of scoring. If you think Monahan is useless, adding Toffoli on the RW doesn't lead to success. It just gives the still bad Flames a couple more wins maybe, and a worse draft pick. He's probably the wrong guy to "fix" that line anyway - Anderson would be better (and he costs Monahan, so now you need a C or else you are running Lindholm-Backlund-Ryan).

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flamesforever99

this cheap #$%$#

What a weird characterisation.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What a weird characterisation.

He said this in the "Fire Brad" topic and I don't get it either. You can debate whether he's spent too much and some are obvious "Yups" depending on the transaction. Both in UFA salaries and in trade compensations. But cheap? As in not spending assets in trades? Or not paying UFAs?

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I would limit it to a group with minutes that suggest they are regulars ... 250 and above gives you 12 forwards per team, and weeds out a guy that a point in one game and looks solid in terms of rates but doesn't play.

That puts 2.2 at about 60th ... which with 31 teams would mean on average either the worst second best player in the league, or the best third best player.

That's a good hockey player ...

Good points. I wasn't really saying Monahan was a bad player though, he has had a decent career. I was saying this team has demonstrated that it struggles scoring 5 on 5, 4 of the last 5 seasons have shown that.

Honest question, does having our top centre place 60th relative to his peers in 5 on 5 scoring per 60 also not evidence of bottom third 5 on 5 scoring?

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He said this in the "Fire Brad" topic and I don't get it either. You can debate whether he's spent too much and some are obvious "Yups" depending on the transaction. Both in UFA salaries and in trade compensations. But cheap? As in not spending assets in trades? Or not paying UFAs?

Maybe Brad's a bad tipper.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I don't recall there being massive disagreement on CP about that trade at the time.

Everyone bats 100% in hindsight.

I don't know. The trade wasn't beloved. There was some concern about the price paid. I think my own take was that I liked Hamonic as a player but don't like 1sts getting moved.
So I think a lot of people were "OK" with it but not over the moon.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I don't recall there being massive disagreement on CP about that trade at the time.

Everyone bats 100% in hindsight.

For your reading pleasure.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showth...hlight=Hamonic

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I don't recall there being massive disagreement on CP about that trade at the time.

Everyone bats 100% in hindsight.

Oh, I think there was significant complaint about the price and the player. I don't know that anyone thought it turn out as badly - to the degree Hamonic just walked for nothing. I'd sy 50-50 but mostly about the price (people thought the player was good).

Hamonic and Neal are two clear big mistakes IMO. That said, you can see the thinking behind both moves. Neal because even now people talk about the need for scoring on RW and back then the one thing you could say about Neal is that he always scored 20+. And with Gio, Hamilton and Brodie there was a perception that you needed a defensive RHS D because you really didn't have that anywhere in the lineup.

ETA: The expectation was also that the 1st rounder was going to be pretty darned late.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

To me it’s less about “firing” the guy than it is whether he is the best person for the job. So excuses don’t really get you to where you should actually have confidence in him.

I guess I'd have to know who the other person is, which I'm guessing they wouldn't.

In my mind, he's a thorough hard working guy that will only get better.

Not sure I'd want to roll the dice and end up with another Button or Feaster.