[PGT] Sens 6 Flames 1

[2ArmBands]

Originally Posted by zamler

You have to be taking crazy pills to think you can evaluate this team based on the how they perform with Ward at the helm.

Lol - this team absolutely needs to be evaluated coaching arrangements aside. This core stinks as bad as the coaching. They’ve proven it more than once. They don’t get a free pass this time regardless of what happens to Ward. Changes are imminent, and they should be

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Well at this stage the roster will be heading to coach #5. If I'm Gallant I'm waiting for the right team, not this one.
Maybe if I'm Bodreau and seeing the end of my coaching career closing in - I take a crack at this sad sack group.

Not disagreeing about the roster -- but I actually don't think they've hired a good coach since removing Hartley. They were all poor choices behind the bench.

[DiracSpike]

You can get a good coach two different ways; picking an established head coach with some pedigree that has won multiple other places, or taking a chance on an unproven assistant/AHL head coach that turns out to be a stud. The tradeoff is you pay out the nose for an established winner, you can hire a new kid on the block for cheaper but it's riskier. For some reason the last 10 years the Flames have gone with a third option, hiring coaches already proven to be mediocre or failures. It's pretty frustrating to see and I usually defend everything this franchise does besides the godawful uni's we finally replaced.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by 2ArmBands

Lol - this team absolutely needs to be evaluated coaching arrangements aside. This core stinks as bad as the coaching. They’ve proven it more than once. They don’t get a free pass this time regardless of what happens to Ward. Changes are imminent, and they should be

You think changes to this roster are imminent? Have you not been watching the Tre tenure? Nothing is going to change core wise.

[Jaybo]

Originally Posted by nieuwy-89

Crazy to watch an Oilers game and wish we had players with the heart and competitiveness of Chiasson and Russell.

The Oilers are going to win tonight, aren’t they?

[2ArmBands]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

You think changes to this roster are imminent? Have you not been watching the Tre tenure? Nothing is going to change core wise.

The logistics of the season make it difficult for sure but yes by the time next season starts there will be shakeup for sure IMO

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by 2ArmBands

The logistics of the season make it difficult for sure but yes by the time next season starts there will be shakeup for sure IMO

I think you are right there and it starts with the GM.

[CaptainCrunch]

Its funny, I used to thing that being a fan means that you have to be passionate about your team. I realized when the score hit 4-1 and the Flames threw the towel in that I don't feel anything. I'm not mad at the players, I don't feel sorry for them, I don't love them or hate them. I simply have stopped caring. Its not entertaining hockey, this team showed a bit of fight a couple of days ago, but completely surrendered tonight.


I don't hate the coach, the players, the GM, the Owners. I think right now that I'm prepared to put as much heart and effort into cheering for this team as the players put in on the ice.



I've hit the flat line. Watching this team isn't fun, talking about this team certainly isn't fun. Looking at the future isn't fun. So why do it. If a games on, I'll check the score before I turn the channel to the game. In a year of Covid and misery, the Flames had a rare opportunity to engage their fanbase. maybe energize the city and fanbase. Now we can't even throw jersey's on the ice in protest.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Are there actually Ward supporters? I don't think there are.
I think there are people that believe the core of this team is the primary problem and there are people that believe the coaching is the primary problem, and there are people that believe both contribute in some manner.

But are there any actual Ward supporters?

"Its the coaches fault"

"no it isnt...its the same players doing the same thing for the 6th year more or less under yet another guy"

"Apologistic Ward supporting pinko commie bastard......one more coach will make a difference and your crazy if you think otherwise"

CP discourse in a shortened version.

[81MC]

I missed most of the game, tried watching the third. Boring as ####.

Sucking is one thing. But boring suck? Just the worst.

Covid taught me I don’t need to spend my evenings watching this, there are better things to do. Games like this remind me to act on that.

[Mr.Coffee]

Is it not a tap in decision for Bean or whatever to start making the requisite changes here? I feel like it is. Tonight should have been pink slip night with clear “blow it up” direction to the new incoming GM candidates.

Swear to god at this stage there are posters on this site that could manage this team better than it is currently being managed. No question.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t know a single “Ward supporter” on this board. You are mistaking people who say a new/better coach won’t move the needle much, and also the times when people disagree with a particular criticism because they think it’s incorrect.

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Are there actually Ward supporters? I don't think there are.
I think there are people that believe the core of this team is the primary problem and there are people that believe the coaching is the primary problem, and there are people that believe both contribute in some manner.

But are there any actual Ward supporters?

Okay even if this is true then why do these so called non supporters seem to defend him and say changing the coach isn’t part of the solution.

It’s not the only thing that needs to change but it’s clear he’s not the solution, and if he’s not part of the solution then he shouldn’t be coaching here. It’s that simple.

Going back to the offseason I thought there was three steps here and I still do.

1) Hire a proven coach and commit to him for 3 seasons to stabilize the coaching position (Preferably Boudreau IMO)

2) If a core move is available that makes sense in the offseason make that trade, if not don’t make a move for the sake of making a move until you see the players play with the new coach

3) Depending on the result of the season assess what players will work with Boudreau (or whoever the coach is) and his plan as the longer term coach of this team, move on the players that don’t fit in

That should have been the plan.

Instead we got a lame duck coach on a cheap 2 year deal who has no head coaching experience who was in over his head as an interim coach, and now that’s more clear then ever.

We have a group of players with even lower trade value because everyone looks like crap in this passive, defensive system. And nobody seems to be committing or believing what the coach is preaching.

And we have no real long term plan for the coach or the core of this team but who is part of the solution and who is part of the problem is more muddy then ever.

Originally Posted by transplant99

"Its the coaches fault"

"no it isnt...its the same players doing the same thing for the 6th year more or less under yet another guy"

"Apologistic Ward supporting pinko commie bastard......one more coach will make a difference and your crazy if you think otherwise"

CP discourse in a shortened version.

It’s not quite the same thing though. This is way worse than under any of the previous coaches.

Under Hartley it was a young team that just wasn’t that good yet, they weren’t ready and the 14-15 season made false expectations.

Under Gulutzan they had some issues but overall all the underlying numbers were good and moving in the right direction. The problem then was a terrible shooting percentage and terrible goaltending. That team actually played good in the playoffs, but I think Elliott actually had one of the worst playoff performances from a goalie all time.

Under Peters the underlying advanced stats were still strong but the shooting percentage jumped up (especially to start the 18-19 season) but goaltending still wasn’t great.

Wards team is worse than all those things. The only reason the team even has an okay record is because the goaltending for him has been great (6th in the league in his time as coach) and the shooting percentage has been fine.

The underlying numbers and percentages have dropped off, the team is playing a less attractive style, and they look even less engaged than they did under any of the previous coaches.

So sure some of the signs are similar but Ward is getting even less out of this team than any coach before him, even though he’s getting elite goaltending that the previous coaches didn’t even get a sniff of

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They can give more. But Olympics = elite? Can’t agree. do you think Patrick Sharp, Dan Hamhius, Chris Kunitz, MIKE SMITH were elite or just really good players? They all made Team Canada arguably the hardest team to make. The US had Derek Stephan, JVR, Faulk... I mean, Sweden routinely has non NHLers.

Nobody said that every Olympian is elite. However, players that are surefire picks on the USA and Swedish olympic teams do tend to be elite level players.

Sharp, Hamhuis, Kunitz, Smith, Stepan... get real. None of those players would be in a conversation for a 1 for 1 trade with Gaudreau or Tkachuk. Lindholm is maybe at that Sharp level.

Apparently you think the players aren't very good, so the coach doesn't matter. I disagree. They hired one quality coach in Peters and came first in the west with the same core and a better goalie (granted, the Gio downgrade is depressingly huge).

I hate watching a team that can't score in transition, plays passively in their own zone, and can't score 5 in 5. It's boring and they aren't winning. This group should be better or at least they should be failing at playing a style that fits them.

[RoadGame]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Ive been with this team since April of 1980.

Who.... are you?

Ever since two or three blowout losses ago when you and timbit were wading into the PGT responding to some frustrated and impassioned fans and the comment "do you even know who you're saying that to" was made in respect of coaching critiques...

As I read the cut & thrust of GTs, PGTs and Ward threads I can't help but get a serious King-Abdullah-II-going-undercover-in-public vibe from you two.

[zamler]

I'm going to need someone to explain that reference.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by transplant99

"Its the coaches fault"

"no it isnt...its the same players doing the same thing for the 6th year more or less under yet another guy"

"Apologistic Ward supporting pinko commie bastard......one more coach will make a difference and your crazy if you think otherwise"

CP discourse in a shortened version.

Spoiler!

[Mr.Coffee]

Didn’t they fire Hartley one year after he won coach of the year? Because the players were sad or something?

That should tell you all you need to know here.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Are there actually Ward supporters? I don't think there are.
I think there are people that believe the core of this team is the primary problem and there are people that believe the coaching is the primary problem, and there are people that believe both contribute in some manner.

But are there any actual Ward supporters?

Most posters fit these 3 groups.

But there's people that won't acknowledge the coach is part of the problem at all , so they won't fit the 3 groups you just mentioned.

I'd call that supporters.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Are there actually Ward supporters? I don't think there are.
I think there are people that believe the core of this team is the primary problem and there are people that believe the coaching is the primary problem, and there are people that believe both contribute in some manner.

But are there any actual Ward supporters?

My personal take is this: it’s so pointless arguing with people who hate Ward. They always come at you with “we haven’t hired an experienced coach yet”. It’s literally impossible to argue against it. There’s no way to disprove it. And maybe they’re right, but I think that argument gives the players a free pass.

What we DO have is four coaches with relatively the same core and the same results and the same problems. So while we haven’t hired an experienced coach I don’t have much faith that if we did much would change.

Do I think Ward is a good coach? No. But it’s absolutely exhausting blaming the coach time and time again. At some point it’s not the coach anymore. I think it’s a lazy excuse and a lazy argument that lets the players off the hook.

I think the coaching is an issue, but I think the core needs to be changed first. Coaching and management share some of the blame, but it’s not equal. It’s mostly on the players in my opinion.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

My personal take is this: it’s so exhausting arguing with people who hate Ward. They always come at you with “we haven’t hired an experienced coach yet”. It’s literally impossible to argue against it. There’s no way to disprove it. And maybe they’re right, but I think that argument gives the players a free pass.

What we DO have is four coaches with relatively the same core and the same results and the same problems. So while we haven’t hired an experienced coach I don’t have much faith that if we did much would change.

Do I think Ward is a good coach? No. But it’s absolutely exhausting blaming the coach time and time again. At some point it’s not the coach anymore. I think it’s a lazy excuse and a lazy argument that lets the players off the hook.

I think the coaching is an issue, but I think the core needs to be changed first. Coaching and management share some of the blame, but it’s not equal. It’s mostly on the players in my opinion.

You want a new core under Ward? Damn.