New Poll: Should/Will the Flames Keep Treliving

[Ashasx]

I think I'm as frustrated as anybody with BT's moves. I was probably the loudest and most annoying after signing Brouwer, Stone, etc. I hate half of BT's moves, and I like the other half. I see a vision, as poorly as it came to pass this season. I think he's very intelligent, but sometimes gets blinded by what he thinks he knows.

I would probably be entirely on board with replacing BT, but I'm terrified of who he would be replaced with. I don't trust ownership to replace BT with a better GM, so with that thought alone, I hope he remains.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I think I'm as frustrated as anybody with BT's moves. I was probably the loudest and most annoying after signing Brouwer, Stone, etc. I hate half of BT's moves, and I like the other half. I see a vision, as poorly as it came to pass this season. I think he's very intelligent, but sometimes gets blinded by what he thinks he knows.

I would probably be entirely on board with replacing BT, but I'm terrified of who he would be replaced with. I don't trust ownership to replace BT with a better GM, so with that thought alone, I hope he remains.

This. This so much.

I don't believe in Treliving like many on here do.

But I also don't believe in this organization's ability to get a high-end GM. The devil you know and all that.

[Pellanor]

I trust Tre to manage the flat cap over the next few years.
I trust that he learns from his mistakes. He doesn't take risks with qualifing offers any more, and I believe we seen the last of the Brouwer or Neal type deals.
I trust him to be in on every deal that could make the Flames better, and to not get robbed in a trade.
I trust in his ability to draft and develop young talent.

My worry is his vision for the team. The Flames play best with a transition game and active defence. However him and the coaching staff seem to believe that this style will not in the playoffs. The biggest thing I want to see for next season is a coach who has a plan for how to make the playstyle that the Flames are best at work for playoff hockey.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Can someone articulate what Treliving's vision has been for the team?

I think it can start to pieced together with this interview:


He focuses on the top 4 D. It all starts with your end, being able to breakout so he wants to build a defensive corps that can play the modern game (with caveats to other areas)

Q:You’ve been ultra aggressive in building your defence. It was already strong (Mark Girodano, TJ Brodie and Dougie Hamilton), but you traded a first and two seconds for Hamonic. Why the overkill?

A: I think your team is built on your top-four D. To me, that is the heartbeat of your team. They stabilize everything. They are the ones who are either going to get the puck moving or not. They’re the ones who create your transition or not. They need to be able to get out of trouble because fewer bad things happen when you’re not around your own net.

You want to go as deep as you can beyond four, but the foundation of good teams is their top four defence. If you don’t have that four, it’s like building a house on shaky ground.

I interpret this as he wants players that can think fast and play fast and he loves size and strength.

Q:What was that certain style you wanted them to play?

A: Size and strength is still very important. I wish they were all six-foot-five. But the tempo at which the game is being played, that’s almost paramount.

It’s also being able to think fast enough. The rink is open now and you can go from the defensive zone to the offensive zone immediately. The game has been stretched and things move a whole lot quicker. Speed of play and speed of thinking the game is paramount. You need players who can fit into that. Size and strength are still important, but you can’t sacrifice the tempo of your team.

Build four lines that can score? I like that.

Q: You have some elite players at the top of your lineup, but your scoring is four lines deep. Is it considered an expectation, not a bonus, that your bottom six contribute offensively?

We relied here on too few to do too much for too long. If 13 (Johnny Gaudreau) and 23 (Sean Monahan) were scoring, then more often than not we had a chance to win. But if they didn’t, then more often than not we finished second. We needed more contributors.

Your top guys are going to be your top guys and that’s why they get paid what they get paid, but scoring has to be part of everybody’s job description. To what extent? You have to be realistic, but nobody can be let off the hook now where all they do is check or all they do is kill penalties. In today’s game you need people who score throughout the lineup.

Now, I'm sure people with whine that he hasn't done any of his stated goals but I'd disagree. It's not all going to be perfect. You put in the work, make the assessments and then make your moves. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't - that's what you get with predicting human nature/performance.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hocke...es-master-plan

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Can someone articulate what Treliving's vision has been for the team?

Okay, I'll try, even though it's nebulous because Treliving holds his cards close to his chest.

I think they value the following qualities in players in this order:

1. Hockey IQ (by far and away, the one thing that a player must have)
2. Personal Character (is he a good quality human being)
3. Compete level/Battling ability
4. Skill
5. Speed
6. Size/Physical play

Now, unfortunately, he inherited two players at the top of the roster who lack half of those characteristics. Johnny doesn't have 3, 5, or 6 (debatable on 2). Monahan doesn't have 3, 5, and you can debate both 1, 2, and 6. Yet, he's gotta hope that those guys can lead the team despite their flaws. I'm betting that he's done with one or both of them and moves them in the off-season. If not? That means I'm probably wrong about his evaluation system.

On another note, I think 2 being ranked so high is a problem for Treliving and creates bias. Not saying it's a bad thing, but it shouldn't be higher than skill and speed, which actually wins you games a lot of the time. He overpaid for Hamonic, Brouwer, and even Lucic if you want to go there because of perceived "character". He also moved out Hamilton and Neal for character issues as well (the former was not a great move, but at least he got good return. The latter was the best thing he ever did, but speaks to his lack of background checking on the qualities of a player).

I think he's trying to execute a clear vision, but that vision is slightly flawed, and he's made plenty of mistakes when trying to get that vision on the ice. I think he's an excellent asset manager (outside of draft picks) and an elite negotiator....on MOST contracts (nobody bats 1.000). My concern is that his vision is muddied in his own head a little and that he needs some guidance at times (I think Maloney has been good for him).

I do know this, he covets defensemen, almost to a fault, but doesn't work hard on goaltending solutions. There's clear personal bias there.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Pellanor

I trust Tre to manage the flat cap over the next few years.

Cap management thus far has been a disaster.

I trust that he learns from his mistakes.

He bought out Raymond on June 30th to sign Brouwer on July 1st. He bought out Brouwer in August 2018 after signing Neal in July 2018.

He gave too much term and cap to a marginal player in Bouma then did the same thing with Michael Stone. Bought out both players.

He doesn't take risks with qualifing offers any more

He just took two huge gambles with RFAs and qualifying offers, walking Tkachuk to a 10 million dollar qualifying payday a year from UFA and ground Mangiapane into a nub to accept a league minimum 2 way deal instead of locking him up for several years at a reasonable value.

I believe we seen the last of the Brouwer or Neal type deals.

If so it's because he's worked himself progressively upwards until he's landed on a deal he can't buyout in Lucic

I trust him to be in on every deal that could make the Flames better, and to not get robbed in a trade.

He's either not consumating these deals or getting burned by them.

I trust in his ability to draft and develop young talent.

The Flames haven't made a league average amount of picks in 3 years.

My worry is his vision for the team. The Flames play best with a transition game and active defence. However him and the coaching staff seem to believe that this style will not in the playoffs. The biggest thing I want to see for next season is a coach who has a plan for how to make the playstyle that the Flames are best at work for playoff hockey.

Pretty big concern if his vision isn't represented on the ice after 6 years.

Maybe the biggest concern of all?

[Ped]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

He is not a very good GM like Jim Benning, he is not a great GM like Lou or Don Sweeney,

This narrative has to stop. Jim Benning is not a very good GM. He has made some very good picks with the help of his staff (Petterson, Hughes, Boeser, maybe guys liked Podkolzin and Hoglander). He has made an excellent trade in Miller that still could have turned out dicey if they hadn't made the playoffs this year. He made a very good trade in getting Pearson. He made a good trade in getting Leivo.



He also signed Loui Eriksson. Signed TIm Schaller. Signed Jay Beagle for four years. Did good on the Kesler trade, then took Bonino and flipped him for Sutter, who he promptly signed to a completely unnecessary contract. Traded Burrows for Dahlen (good) and then flipped Dahlen for a pretty much non-prospect. Traded McCann for Gudbranson. Traded Forsling for Clendening. SIgned Gagner, Burmistrov, Del Zotto, Nilsson, Chaput, Megna. He bungled teh Dan Hamhuis possible trade. Gagner fidn't work, so he flipped in for Spooner, who didn't work, and he had to buy him out. He traded Kassian for a washed up and more expensive Prust (understanding Kassian's issues necessitated a move).


He drafted Virtanen ahead of Nylander and Ehlers. He drafted Juolevi ahead of Tkachuck. His draft class from 2015 has only 2 guys even signed to pro contracts.


With the Luongo recapture (which wasn't his fault and is still a joke), the Canucks cap situation is not pretty and might force them to either trade or not sign a valuable piece,

[CliffFletcher]

Keep. Treliving has done more good than bad in his tenure. Drafting has been better than in any 5 year period going back to the 80s. His trades have been pretty good. Contract negotiations good. Free agent signings not great. Coaching choices... questionable.

I'm mystified by the criticism that he's too passive. I'm pretty sure Treliving is in the top third of GMs in significant trades. He's also active in free agent market. I know fans would love a GM who makes two or three big trades a season, but that isn't today's NHL.

All of his bad moves have been down to impatience. So the question is whether Treliving himself is impatient, or it's ownership calling the shots on the team's overall posture. I think it's the latter. I think Edwards is extremely reluctant to take the short-term pain of rebuilds, and only allowed Feaster to rebuild when it was well past time to recognize the obvious. And I think he gave Treliving his 'make sure we're a playoff team now' marching orders prematurely.

The team lucked out with Gaudreau and that changed everything. With him and Monahan proving such a potent duo, and Gio getting on in years, the franchise - not just Treliving, but the franchise as a collective - decided it was time to go all in. So we got the Hamilton and Hamonic deals, the shedding of draft picks in a desperate search for goalies. All the moves that teams make when they need to quickly add depth because the farm system is not producing enough quality to fill out the roster.

So once more we're a mediocre, prospect-depleted team. If ownership lets him, Treliving will re-tool. If they don't, we'll keep on keeping on with the mediocrity train, the Flames way.

I don't think replacing Treliving at this point would move this franchise forward. I think he has acumen, experience, and pretty good judgement. And I'm certain that whoever ownership brought in to replace him would be told to make the playoffs.

In general, I think GMs tend to be fired too soon. Look at the Flyers- Hextall was fired a year-and-a-half ago, but the team he put together is looking great. Even Paul Fenton, the butt of everyone's jokes, has been redeemed somewhat by the realization that he won the Fiala-Granlund trade hands-down.

[Fan69]

So the good and the Bad.

G.G. bad - absolutely bad.
2 years of G.G. - unfathomable.
Niel and Brouwer. both were pretty much applauded at the time so what do you do?

the Hamonic trade. turned out bad but I do have one Caveat with this. I personally think this was done on the behest of ownership pushing to repeat the playoffs. I know nothing factual this is my own take.
Or team management honestly believed they had the pieces. ( talk about Bennett later) and the rise of a superstar in J.G. Either way this was an epic fail. The team was minimally a year away from looking at deals like that if not 2. BAD.

Lazar BAD giving away a 2nd round pick, see above.

The Good. Teams top players signed to very good contracts.
Change in the scouting system and evaluation. This is no small matter and we are just starting to see the results I believe, and this also comes into play later.
He is in on everything. Stone, Khadri, Bishop.

The could have beens.
This is where I find the greatest frustration.
Kadri. Would have completely changed the look of this roster I believe. done, nixed by the player, went to a rival.
Bishop deal would probably have gone a long way to solidifying our goaltending, but its goaltending so for all we know he could have come crapped out and been a huge problem and we would be in the same mess regardless.

So lets play pretend what if Hamonic had come in and had really been that steady second pair rock we were hoping for? Again for me completely changes the look of the team on paper. what if Bishop had worked out and he had given us steady to very good goaltending? again completely changes the look of the team.

So at the end of the day what can you blame on him?

I don't believe the J.G. situation is all on Tree but is having huge ramifications on the team. We have a star player that is not invested. period. I don't buy the Johnny has lost a step, or teams have figured him out crowd. He hasnt been invested since the all star break a year and a half ago and having your star player awol is not going to win you a cup.

If Tree can parlay J.G. and some other assets and get back a legitimate top six center with youth on contract or into the draft to pick one a lot of his problems go away. This is to add to Monahan and Bennett, and Backlund.

To my mind the biggest problem with the team is center depth and I think management knows it hence the Kadri trade. The biggest reason we are in this mess is Bennetts timeline and or possible failure to become a reliable top 6 center who we had hoped we drafted. Again if Bennett had become even a good not great top 6 with grit this is suddenly an ugly team at center sporting Monahan a sniper and Backlund a defensive specialist after down the middle.

No one is trading us a better center than Monahan. So again how much blame can you lay on Tree? Guys better than him you get in the top ten of a draft and no one gives them away so not sure what he could do here besides complete rebuild.

In the end I think you keep. I think he has learned his lesson on free agents.
I like what he has done with prospects.
I think a lot of his plays are pushes for the playoffs coming from owners so thats going to happen whoever you put in but again it comes with a Caveat.

What he does with J.G. Will probably be his vindication or grave marker. It will absolutly be a defining moment for this franchise. Iggy 2.0

[Reign of Fire]

Treliving should get one last kick at the can. If the can't get a right coach and the right goalie this season, he should be done next season. As someone mentioned previously, by then it could be time to promote Conroy.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Whether they should keep BT or move on is a complicated question.

I would actually like to hear him answer the question about why his team has not just lost, but been humiliated two years in a row, and what needs to be done about it.

One challenge I see is that Tre has said more than once “the buck stops here”. That is great when you are using the statement to take pressure off of your team/ coaches / whatever, but it has to hold up.

If the buck stops with Tre, he needs to take responsibility for what has happened. That collapse was an embarrassment to the franchise.

So how does the buck stop with him?

One thing we do know for sure is that 13 and 23 were not effective in the post season, again. They are key parts of the core. What happened, and what do you do about it?

Gaudreau had 99 points, he has elite skill. There have been posts outlining how much Monahan has scored relative to his draft class as well. They have skill that others would kill for. So why are they ineffective in the post season?

Is it coaching?

Is it his linemates? We know Johnny has the skill, lateral mobility, shiftiness. Does Johnny need a linemate who plays a physical game, like Bennett or Lucic, to go in hard on the forecheck help create space for him?

Or is it strategy? Why does Johnny keep skating in to guys 1 on 3 and turning it over? There was a good post about their breakouts in one of the game 6 post mortems

Something needs to change, so is it that the players don’t want to what it takes to succeed, or the coaching staff can’t figure out what the players should be doing?

Or do the players just not want to do what it takes?

When 13 and 23 were moving from ELC to second contract, he also fired the coach at the time. Did that send a message to the players about their accountability that the team has paid for ever since?

I really want to hear Tre’s thorough and honest post mortem

His coaching decisions have been one disaster after another, you could argue that when he was a green GM, he basically gave his top players the opportunity to take away a message that they were more important to the franchise than the coach, and these guys are now unable to move the needle at the time of year it matters most.

The team by all accounts have a great group of guys, best room ever, and love Wardo , who empowers them. And they epically failed together.

So what went wrong? And how does it get fixed?

I can’t imagine it is easy to answer the question about whether he should stay or go, until you hear the honest post mortem. I would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

But sadly that’s a conversation between him and ownership, not for people like us.

[slash&burn]

I think you have to let him make the changes to the roster for next season. It's going to be tougher than in normal years but I think he's resourceful and I've generally liked what he's been able to do at and around the draft.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

One thing we do know for sure is that 13 and 23 were not effective in the post season, again. They are key parts of the core. What happened, and what do you do about it?

Gaudreau had 99 points, he has elite skill. There have been posts outlining how much Monahan has scored relative to his draft class as well. They have skill that others would kill for. So why are they ineffective in the post season?

...Or do the players just not want to do what it takes?

When 13 and 23 were moving from ELC to second contract, he also fired the coach at the time. Did that send a message to the players about their accountability that the team has paid for ever since?

Too much success too soon. It happens to lots of professional athletes. They have success (points, money, acclaim) playing the way they enjoy. When a coach comes along and tries to show them that their way of playing will not translate to success in the playoffs, they can either get onboard or tune out the coach. IMHO, Gaudreau and Monahan did the latter. They were getting points. Getting paid. Why change?

Now, is that on Treliving? I guess it is to some extent. He could have told his star players to knuckle down and do what their coach told them. Scotty Bowman famously had that kind of talk with Steve Yzerman back before the Wings had won anything. Buckle down and change the way you play or you're out of here. And Yzerman listened. Today, that's less common. Players have more power than coaches - and often GMs - and they know it. This team had much the same problem with latter-day Iginla.

The fortunes of pro sports franchises often ride on whether they can acquire star players, and whether those star players are the kind who will do whatever the coach asks them to do to win. If that happens, everything else follows. If it doesn't, you spend years treading water until the stars retire or get moved.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ right. And like I say, if Treliving augmented Johnny and Monahan’s second contracts by getting rid of a coach they didn’t like, how does he turn around and tell them to listen to another coach? To put accountability on players over coach?

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I think I'm as frustrated as anybody with BT's moves. I was probably the loudest and most annoying after signing Brouwer, Stone, etc. I hate half of BT's moves, and I like the other half. I see a vision, as poorly as it came to pass this season. I think he's very intelligent, but sometimes gets blinded by what he thinks he knows.

I would probably be entirely on board with replacing BT, but I'm terrified of who he would be replaced with. I don't trust ownership to replace BT with a better GM, so with that thought alone, I hope he remains.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Some of his signings were very bad (though I never seen the downside to the Neal deal at the time), as well as his deals like Hamonic. But some of his trades and draft picks were very good as well. I don't think there's anything heads and shoulders better out there, so why not stick with a guy who knows how to make a big splash?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Ped

This narrative has to stop. Jim Benning is not a very good GM. He has made some very good picks with the help of his staff (Petterson, Hughes, Boeser, maybe guys liked Podkolzin and Hoglander). He has made an excellent trade in Miller that still could have turned out dicey if they hadn't made the playoffs this year. He made a very good trade in getting Pearson. He made a good trade in getting Leivo.



He also signed Loui Eriksson. Signed TIm Schaller. Signed Jay Beagle for four years. Did good on the Kesler trade, then took Bonino and flipped him for Sutter, who he promptly signed to a completely unnecessary contract. Traded Burrows for Dahlen (good) and then flipped Dahlen for a pretty much non-prospect. Traded McCann for Gudbranson. Traded Forsling for Clendening. SIgned Gagner, Burmistrov, Del Zotto, Nilsson, Chaput, Megna. He bungled teh Dan Hamhuis possible trade. Gagner fidn't work, so he flipped in for Spooner, who didn't work, and he had to buy him out. He traded Kassian for a washed up and more expensive Prust (understanding Kassian's issues necessitated a move).


He drafted Virtanen ahead of Nylander and Ehlers. He drafted Juolevi ahead of Tkachuck. His draft class from 2015 has only 2 guys even signed to pro contracts.


With the Luongo recapture (which wasn't his fault and is still a joke), the Canucks cap situation is not pretty and might force them to either trade or not sign a valuable piece,

So what you are saying is he is much better than Treliving? I would agree with that, maybe he is not very good, but he is significantly better than our GM.

[dammage79]

The longer we don't hear from tree the more I will be convinced he's not the GM of the Flames. He's pretty prompt on availability.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by dammage79

The longer we don't hear from tree the more I will be convinced he's not the GM of the Flames. He's pretty prompt on availability.

I think we'll hear from him on Monday as well from all the players. With it being the weekend he's probably taking the time to review things.

[Toonage]

Other GMs have spoken already, many within a day of their teams being eliminated. The delay is notable.

[AC]

Treliving (and the players) will speak on Monday, I'm sure.