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View Poll Results: Should/Will the Flames keep Ward as HC
They shouldn't, but they will 282 46.31%
They shouldn't, and they won't 235 38.59%
They should, but they won't 26 4.27%
They should, and they will 66 10.84%
Voters: 609. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-22-2020, 11:04 AM   #61
Erick Estrada
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Hartley had the Flames playing that style but he wasn't the GM's guy. The Flames were were suited to that style of play though.
Hartley clearly knew how to play a style that got the best out of his roster but he also was a bully and that was his downfall. I can't fault the GM for getting rid of him when the players were on the verge of tuning him out.
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Old 08-22-2020, 11:08 AM   #62
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Agreed.



Hartley got replaced because he wasn't the new GM's guy. Gulutzan got replaced because he was terrible. Peterson basically forced the Flames to fire him because of his past.



That's only one firing based on the team's performance under the coach, and he was a truly awful coach that shouldn't have been hired in the first place.
Peters was on his way to be fired due to performance before everyone found out he was a racist

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Old 08-22-2020, 11:09 AM   #63
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Hartley largely got replaced because the players asked for a change
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Old 08-22-2020, 11:39 AM   #64
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Hartley largely got replaced because the players asked for a change
Yeah by all accounts the players hated him. Sounds like he was down right mean to a specific players which only works to motivate for so long.

I think Stajan and another player both had some really harsh things to say during intermission panels and interviews? Motivating a team by giving them a common enemy can work short term, but blows it in your face at some point.
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Old 08-22-2020, 11:40 AM   #65
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Jonas Hiller cost Hartley his job. I would hold a grudge if I was Hartley.

Also, I guess the shift league-wide to a focus on analytics
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Old 08-22-2020, 11:45 AM   #66
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Jonas Hiller cost Hartley his job. I would hold a grudge if I was Hartley.

Also, I guess the shift league-wide to a focus on analytics
Hartley lost his job because he could not follow up a miracle-season with any sort of sustained results. He lost the room, and his players became quickly exhausted by his tactics.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:23 PM   #67
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I don't think that you can lay the blame on Hartley's shoes for his last season. Treliving gave him 3 poor goaltending options, and when finally one of them worked (Ramo) this team was quickly on the rise again, and when that goalie got injured, it was over.


Hartley 'deserved' another season on paper. He was a good coach and a good strategist, IMO.


However, I agree with Treliving in having to let him go. I don't think every player hated him - a lot of players spoke well of Hartley, and Gaudreau even went to his hockey camp for kids in the off-season after he was let go - but he was most definitely a bully with motivational tactics that aren't acceptable any longer.


Really good coach with history of making teams better at each stop, but definitely terrible motivational techniques that are deserving of being fired. That's how I see it. I also didn't see it as a 'miracle season' - Flames were legitimately a good team at about the midway point of the previous season as well, and were a good team again when they were able to benefit from average goaltending from Ramo the next.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:38 PM   #68
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Here's some of the "Hartley was a bully" stuff:

Sarich: Bob Hartley "was the worst coach I ever had"
https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=166506

Shane O'Brien has told stories about Hartley making Baertschi cry. I think McGrattan has had a lot of harsh words for him as well.

Scott Parker called him a bully:
https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/f...y-was-a-bully/

I've heard players talk about rallying as a team around a player that gets picked on by a coach. Easy to see how that motivation dies quickly though when you see the coach doing it again and again though.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:38 PM   #69
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Hartley largely got replaced because the players asked for a change
Yup, heard from a good source Johnny and Mony wouldn't re-sign if Hartley was still the coach.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:56 PM   #70
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Hartley lost his job because he could not follow up a miracle-season with any sort of sustained results. He lost the room, and his players became quickly exhausted by his tactics.

Simple narrative. Let’s take a trip back in time and refresh our memory as to the circumstances.

Do you remember how that season started?
D - Gio returning from major injury, Brodie, who emerged as the leader on D when Gio was out, started being out for 6 weeks with a broken hand, and Dougie Hamilton settling in .

Hartley was starting out with a major set of challenges on D. Remember they were collapsing a lot, blocking a ton of shots, and using their speed and transition game and Hamilton was being asked to do some things defensively that were out of his comfort zone. In his first 9 games, he had one point and was -11.

G - the three headed goalie monster

Do you think that it was easy for the coach to run a normal practice, or do you think that having to work around a third goalie introduced logistical distractions and interfered with that?

And how did that work out? The team started out winning 3 and losing 10, allowed 56 goals in their first 13 games.

The team had settled quite a bit, dug themselves out of the hole, and Ramo emerged as the number one. He put up a .919 sv% in each of December and January (2.27 and 2.34 GAA)

When Ramo was injured in early Feb, Hiller picked up the workload and the team collapsed. Hiller put up 3.62/ .889 in Feb and 5.27 / .825 in March

Hartley didn’t just lose his job because he was a big meanie.

Not to mention that Hartley was, shall we say, not Tre’s guy. I am not going to elaborate, but there is more to that

I know people like to have their own narratives, they are comfortable, and the simpler the better.

Let’s look at it another way. If the GM was turfing a Cup winning coach, that just won the Jack Adams, because a young mentally fragile team were frustrated and couldn’t use the colour chart to articulate their feelings, what message is he sending?

Is he instilling a culture that equips people to deal with adversity? Is he looking at how the season unfolded and using that keen analytical eye?

Is he taking the opportunity to turf the coach he grudgingly inherited? Maybe even a coach that he felt threatened by (a green GM working with a veteran coach with a pedigree, and likely strong opinions?)

Is he validating a culture where the inmates know they can run the asylum, and players aren’t accountable?

That’s what assistant coaches are for. Nobody liked Scotty Bowman.

Tre had all the info to assess that season, formulate the interpretation and path forward he wanted, and his answer was to hand pick Glen Gulutzan

Tre’s handling of coaches has been nothing short of disastrous. I expect he rationalizes keeping Ward.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:58 PM   #71
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Yup, heard from a good source Johnny and Mony wouldn't re-sign if Hartley was still the coach.

The guys who everybody is concerned don’t show up for the playoffs?

Huh. How about that.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:59 PM   #72
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Hartley winning the Jack Adams set Treliving’s plans back a full season.

His style of motivation has a defined shelf life, and then it deteriorates quickly. It had already run its course when he won the trophy, so that next season was a waste for everyone.

But, he didn’t care, he got a sweet gig by the former GM desperate to save his own skin (as they are family friends) after not coaching in the NHL for 5 years.
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Old 08-22-2020, 01:02 PM   #73
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I can’t answer this without knowing who else might accept the job here.
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Old 08-22-2020, 01:02 PM   #74
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Hartley's time with the Flames is romanticized because he got them to win a round, which is very rare around these parts, and always had a clever quip for the media.
But he was a bully and I don't have much time for people like that.
Doesn't mean Tre has made the right choices since. But just because he chose the wrong next coach, doesn't mean it wasn't the right decision to fire Hartley.
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Old 08-22-2020, 01:04 PM   #75
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Hartley winning the Jack Adams set Treliving’s plans back a full season.

His style of motivation has a defined shelf life, and then it deteriorates quickly. It had already run its course when he won the trophy, so that next season was a waste for everyone.

But, he didn’t care, he got a sweet gig by the former GM desperate to save his own skin (as they are family friends) after not coaching in the NHL for 5 years.


Well lucky enough, master planner Treliving got that year back, when he relieved Gulutzan of the obligation for the third year that Tre planned for him to coach !
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Old 08-22-2020, 01:09 PM   #76
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Hartley's time with the Flames is romanticized because he got them to win a round, which is very rare around these parts, and always had a clever quip for the media.
But he was a bully and I don't have much time for people like that.
Doesn't mean Tre has made the right choices since. But just because he chose the wrong next coach, doesn't mean it wasn't the right decision to fire Hartley.

And let me be clear. I didn’t say that Hartley wasn’t a bully.

Just TC had a very simple narrative, which I think is too simple, and a lot of things happened that year.

You could argue that GM Tre may have sent a very young team an unintended message when he fired Hartley.

Shelf life aside, Hartley brought in a couple of things. Identity and accountability.

Coincidentally, the team has had a not unrelated set of concerns for years now.
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Old 08-22-2020, 01:26 PM   #77
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I fully expected to be in the minority, but I think should/will keep Ward. This has to be the weirdest Flames season ever, with Covid and the dismissal of Peters. "Should" is a bit strong, but I don't see the Flames getting Gallant or Lavoillette or any other obvious upgrade. If so, I think Ward should have an opportunity for a full season behind the bench with a regular training camp and off season for personnel changes.

I think BT "will" keep him, for the reasons above and I am not so sure he has another chance at a HC hire. All bets are off if BT gets canned.
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Old 08-22-2020, 01:54 PM   #78
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Yup, heard from a good source Johnny and Mony wouldn't re-sign if Hartley was still the coach.

You know what? I would like to circle back on this.

So in 2015-16, Johnny was just finishing his second season, where he took a major step, becoming a point per game player. The team had a challenging year, but he saw personal success and growth. Hartley appeared to trust and rely on his top line.

At this point, you have Johnny, on his ELC, and only having known one NHL coach. Two seasons in to his career.

He is an undersized guy who is probably still thrilled to be in the NHL and getting some early confidence, but who doesn’t come across as particularly assertive, outspoken, or entitled

And you are telling us he is stepping up and essentially giving the Flames an ultimatum?

Because Bob took the tough love approach rather than coddling Sven Baertschi? Because Cory Sarich didn’t like being forced to move the puck, limited to just one D to D pass before heading north?

He just took the step to the NHL, where people are playing for money. Coaching will obviously be different. So Johnny can distinguish between his first ever NHL coach, and what all other locker rooms are like?

I don’t know. I’d question your source.

I don’t see these two guys as having the career confidence and ego for this story to hang together

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Old 08-22-2020, 02:16 PM   #79
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Hartley took the Flames as far as he could. It was time to move on. The guy he was replaced with was a poor choice, but it doesn't mean Hartley's antics belonged in the NHL.
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:34 PM   #80
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Yup, heard from a good source Johnny and Mony wouldn't re-sign if Hartley was still the coach.

Maybe don't show up hung over to practice? Yes Hartley wasnt the greatest but these two come off soft and no killer instinct. This core lacks accountability in my opinion.
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