Poll Request: Retool or Rebuild?

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Exactly this.

I think the best thing this organization can do is gather draft picks and trust their scouts.

Everything else is just a path back to mediocrity. It is beyond infuriating that Tree spent a 3rd and a 4th on Forbort and Gus.

What a waste in a long history of wasting picks. Needlessly and recklessly blowing assets.

The more I talk about Tree, the less impressed I am. Just a sub-par GM. Easily in the bottom 10 league-wide.

Yeah, I like Tre *ducks* but his squandering picks combined with zero playoff success is reeeeeeeally starting to add up.

Lazar - 2nd
Fantenberg - 4th
Elliot - 2nd
Forbort - 4th
Gustafsson - 3rd
Smith - 3rd
Hamonic - 1st, 2nd, 2nd

Among the prospects taken with some of those picks are guys like Formenton, Kyrou and Dobson.

Not good.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

None of those guys are going to be elite #1 D

They're nice top 4 D and good to have a round but yo really think any of them will be like Makar or Hughes, Karlsson or Doughty?

I think Välimäki could be a #1.

I’m willing to wait and see before I say for sure.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

In the last 10 years the Islanders have drafted twice in the 1st round four times.

Their top 4 scorers in the playoffs are all former first round picks taken by the team.

3 of their 4 icetime leaders were picked in the first 3 rounds, one in the 1st round.

If your argument is that picks are better than prospects, I would counter with why not both?

Yes picks are great, and more are better. The risk with picks is that you have them in a down year, or there isn't anyone available in your position of need.

That's where prospects come in - you can target needs.

When acquiring assets, both are good. Saying prospects aren't the way to go is just putting blinders on.

[Flash Walken]

The problem isn't just squandering picks, the problem is that the Flames were asset poor to begin with and need a solid 2-3 seasons of pick accumulation just to get to even par.

They weren't dealing surplus picks to get an advantage, they were spending picks they didn't have to spend to try to get to 8th place.

[GhostCookie]

At the GM position we need a change. We as an organization have not been good at identifying actual talent and ability and every time it seems like we are maybe taking the right steps with smart signings and developing players, we get excited and jump right back into crappy trades and signings.

For the coach, I think Ward has done well given how messed up the Peter’s situation is. But I think you need to look at what you have or are building and pick a coach that matches that style. I think our coaches are often guilty of trying to play a system or style of game the players aren’t built for and it just guarantees failure and frustration. It likely is part of why every coach here gets tuned out in record time.

We don’t have a ton to build around, and should leverage what we have to build for the future. I think Johnny and Mony have some of their best hockey ahead of them, just not in the flaming C. Teams won’t bend over backwards to get them, but if we try to deal them as deadline rentals we will get nothing back, so we should move them while their team-friendly contract is a selling point. Lose any hope of moving looch, it’s just a bad contract. Hopefully we can find a role he fits, and I am still 100% sure we got more out of him this year than we would’ve Neal.

Gio got where he is by playing smart, not physical. He’s just slowing down too much to have the impact anymore. Hard to expect your team to go to the dirty areas when your captain won’t. Might be time you see if someone wants a veteran for some futures, but the return won’t be high unless someone outperforms their expectations. For the goalie, just pick a number 1 and go with it. The amount of time and energy this team has spent on developing goalies is criminal. Rarely do goalies thrive in a 1a/1b setup and it’s just burning money and cap space to get mediocrity anyways.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If your argument is that picks are better than prospects, I would counter with why not both?

Yes picks are great, and more are better. The risk with picks is that you have them in a down year, or there isn't anyone available in your position of need.

That's where prospects come in - you can target needs.

When acquiring assets, both are good. Saying prospects aren't the way to go is just putting blinders on.

You get a higher value return in pick volume than you can in prospects and the flames are about 6 years away from being in a position where they can draft for 'need' because they need everything.

2 years ago the flames didn't make their first draft selection until the 4th round. The idea that getting Morgan Frost is going to turn this thing around is idiotic. Look what has JUST happened with the Flames and their 'rebuild'. Look at what is happening in Edmonton.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You get a higher value return in pick volume than you can in prospects and the flames are about 6 years away from being in a position where they can draft for 'need' because they need everything.

2 years ago the flames didn't make their first draft selection until the 4th round. The idea that getting Morgan Frost is going to turn this thing around is idiotic. Look what has JUST happened with the Flames and their 'rebuild'. Look at what is happening in Edmonton.

(1st bold) Based on what?

(2nd bold) nice strawman - how is that relevant to picks vs prospects? I could just as easily say their last 1st round pick was Pelletier, how is that going to turn this around?

[Enoch Root]

You can't close doors like that. You can't just make blanket statements like 'picks are better than prospects'.

You have to take advantage of what is available. You have to be flexible.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The problem isn't just squandering picks, the problem is that the Flames were asset poor to begin with and need a solid 2-3 seasons of pick accumulation just to get to even par.

They weren't dealing surplus picks to get an advantage, they were spending picks they didn't have to spend to try to get to 8th place.

Were they?

2013 - 3 x 1st round
2014 - 1x 1st round and 2x 2nd
2015 - 2x 2nd
2016 - 1x 1st round and 2x 2nd

4 drafts before they started trading either their 1st or 2nd they had drafted in the top 2 Rounds 11 times or nearly 3 times per draft.

Lazar was a brutal trade but it was a 2nd for a guy that was a 22 year old 1st rounder. The Stone trade was critical to making the playoffs in 2017. The Hamonic trade was a misread in 2 ways. First how good of a player Hamonic is and second how good that Flames team was.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Were they?

2013 - 3 x 1st round
2014 - 1x 1st round and 2x 2nd
2015 - 2x 2nd
2016 - 1x 1st round and 2x 2nd

4 drafts before they started trading either their 1st or 2nd they had drafted in the top 2 Rounds 11 times or nearly 3 times per draft.

Yeah, but in that 2013 draft they didn't have a 2nd or 3rd round pick. They put far too much value in late first round picks which ultimatly yielded nothing. In the trailing 3 years they have 2 extra picks in the first two rounds above their allotted number. With other teams we see them pick 14 times in the first 3 rounds over a 3 year stretch. It's a committment to getting more picks in more than just the first round, and actually sticking to that plan that the team needs.

[GhostCookie]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Were they?

2013 - 3 x 1st round
2014 - 1x 1st round and 2x 2nd
2015 - 2x 2nd
2016 - 1x 1st round and 2x 2nd

4 drafts before they started trading either their 1st or 2nd they had drafted in the top 2 Rounds 11 times or nearly 3 times per draft.

Lazar was a brutal trade but it was a 2nd for a guy that was a 22 year old 1st rounder. The Stone trade was critical to making the playoffs in 2017. The Hamonic trade was a misread in 2 ways. First how good of a player Hamonic is and second how good that Flames team was.

Hamonic was the deal you make when you are one piece away from being a legitimate favorite to win. It wouldn’t have worked out because he wasn’t as good as that price commands, but it’s an understandable risk when you are one piece away. It just feels like the flames feel they are that close, but the only thing we are one piece away from is being a slightly better mediocre team.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Yeah, but in that 2013 draft they didn't have a 2nd or 3rd round pick. They put far too much value in late first round picks which ultimatly yielded nothing. In the trailing 3 years they have 2 extra picks in the first two rounds above their allotted number. With other teams we see them pick 14 times in the first 3 rounds over a 3 year stretch. It's a committment to getting more picks in more than just the first round, and actually sticking to that plan that the team needs.

Nailed it.

[FlamesAddiction]

As much as I hate the term, I said retool. I don't think we have the resources to do a full rebuild at this point. If we were drafting in the top 5 this year, I would say go for it. But being a deep draft this year, and with teams likely being cautious to take on big salaries, it is going to be really difficult to trade for high draft picks. You rebuild through the draft, and we just are not in a position to start one right now.

I think it's time to put Tkachuk on the top line with Monahan and Lindholm. That top line is just too easy to play against right now. I would also consider making him the captain. Nothing against Gio, but I think Tkachuk is the best leader on the team at this point.

[TheKurgan]

I vote for a retool but after thinking about for awhile I think a rebuild is the only option. Gaudreau and Monahan need to go, trade them for picks and prospect (I think our scouts have done a decent job in recent years). Build around Tkachuk, Lindholm, Backlund, Bennett, Dube, Mangiapane, Hanifin, Anderson and Valimaki. Every one else is expendable

Sign a real #1 goalie

Hire a actual NHL coach with playoff sucess and experience

Hire a good GM, one who has built winning teams before

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Yeah, but in that 2013 draft they didn't have a 2nd or 3rd round pick. They put far too much value in late first round picks which ultimatly yielded nothing. In the trailing 3 years they have 2 extra picks in the first two rounds above their allotted number. With other teams we see them pick 14 times in the first 3 rounds over a 3 year stretch. It's a committment to getting more picks in more than just the first round, and actually sticking to that plan that the team needs.

In the 4 drafts before drafting pat kane, the blackhawks made 48 total picks including 14 picks in the first 2 rounds.

Chicago drafted top 10 three times, top 3 twice, and got one player (toews) to show for it.

In the 4 years of Vinny's window the Flames drafted 26 times total including 11 in the first 2 rounds.

Calgary drafted top 10 twice, top 5 once and got one player to show for it.

[Enoch Root]

Yes, the Blackhawks are a great example of a successful full rebuild. Unfortunately, it took a generation of sucking to acquire all of those picks.

There is no chance the Flames go that deep for that long.

[Calgary4LIfe]

The more I think of it, the more I am on-board with a tear-down. I think a retool can work - but unless the Flames bring in a really good coach who can work with the existing pieces, it is just going to be more of the same.


I think you make 2 years' worth of trades.


Year 1: Trade Giordano, Gaudreau and Backlund for picks/prospects.



Year 2: Trade Monahan and Tkachuk


Why 2 years? So you don't shoot yourself in the foot with players coming off of ELC's at the same time, and to give development time and opportunity. Either way, if you want to do it all at once, then so be it.


Why are the Flames trading Tkachuk? 9 million dollar qualifying offer, then 1 year to free agency. Sorry, but Flames can't take that risk right now. That's a terrible risk to take that can blow up in their faces. Tkachuk is worth a king's ransom right now, so don't screw this up.


Players to keep:
Bennett, Dube, Mangiapane, Hanifin, Andersson, Kylington, and Lindholm.



This won't be the 'core' IMO, but a really good base to build off of. I don't see a franchise-type in this list - maybe Bennett if he gets it all together with the opportunity that will be afforded to him - jury is out on that, but I think he is just going to be a very good supporting player. Andersson simply doesn't have the skating ability to be a #1 IMO. Hanifin might get there, but I do think that he would have been a lot closer to showing that than he has been so far.


Keep Lindholm. No, I don't think he was awesome, but he is a very strong support player and is signed to a nice long-term deal. You don't want to do what Edmonton and some other flat-out failures have done and put their youth in a position to fail. I think keeping the players above - plus adding a few solid journeymen vets - will allow this prospects to grow in a healthy environment.


I am ready for a rebuild. This team has a penchant for hiring less than adequate coaching staff, so unless that changes soon, a 'retool' will just delay the inevitable and make the Flames bleed assets. They already lost significant assets in Hamonic and Brodie (assuming Brodie leaves, which seems like a certainty, unfortunately).


Stop the bleeding right now and the devaluation of further assets, and sell. The drafting side of things is strong in the organization - arguably the ONLY bright side in the entire organization. Give them more ammunition to assemble the new core that can actually challenge top teams in the league.


Of course you keep all the guys on the farm/system right now, as there will be some moving up to take the vacant spots. There doesn't appear to be any blue-chippers down there - perhaps with the exception of Wolf and Parsons maybe, but there is solid depth players to help this team moving forward, I would say. Lots of depth guys actually, so they should be able to graduate some alongside a new 'core'.


Just do it right and don't further devalue assets. I would love to keep Tkachuk, but IMO, that's just too much risk. I would imagine you can get quite the bidding war between Ottawa and Toronto for him - Toronto definitely needs defensive help, but they also need gritty guys who can both score and defend in their forward ranks as well. Ottawa won't want the brother going to a rival. I don't know.. either way, Tkachuk will return a king's ransom, and the Flames can't afford to try and look for a landing spot in the last year of his contract when everyone is going to start worrying about him being a flight risk.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Yeah, but in that 2013 draft they didn't have a 2nd or 3rd round pick. They put far too much value in late first round picks which ultimatly yielded nothing. In the trailing 3 years they have 2 extra picks in the first two rounds above their allotted number. With other teams we see them pick 14 times in the first 3 rounds over a 3 year stretch. It's a committment to getting more picks in more than just the first round, and actually sticking to that plan that the team needs.

Didn’t they draft Kanzig in the third round?

2nd was moved for Cammalleri which is still a trade I like years later

[flambers]

Retool for sure, I can not see any chance the Flames ownership would ever approve a rebuild.

Flames GM will need to make some changes, he has cap room

(i.e. I would think Brodie and Harmonic are both gone by the players choice....)

Gaudreau decision has to be made this off-season, as I can not imagine he would have any interest re-signing.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, the Blackhawks are a great example of a successful full rebuild. Unfortunately, it took a generation of sucking to acquire all of those picks.

There is no chance the Flames go that deep for that long.

This is just as wrong now as it was 7 years ago when you tried to dismiss the same thing the same way.


It took 3 years of consistent acquisition and selling.