Practice notes July 20. Groups split into Main and taxi squads.

[CF84]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Talkin out your ass- here are Mangi's linemate combos from 18-19:

2 JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - NEAL,JAMES
MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - NEAL,JAMES - RYAN,DEREK
JANKOWSKI,MARK - LOMBERG,RYAN - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW
3 HATHAWAY,GARNET - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - RYAN,DEREK
BACKLUND,MIKAEL - FROLIK,MICHAEL - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW
JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - NEAL,JAMES
4 HATHAWAY,GARNET - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - RYAN,DEREK
CZARNIK,AUSTIN - JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW
HATHAWAY,GARNET - JANKOWSKI,MARK - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW

Mangiapane lugged around Janko, Neal, Hathaway, and czarnik pretty consistently, and yet was able to build off of that glowing support cast to move up the lineup.
Bennett could not perform in the EXACT same situation.

Speaks from ass while accusing someone of talking out of ass?

[Bingo]

I always find this debate hilarious.

It gets hammered into the ground with this notion that it has to be either
a) Bennett has blown it himself
b) the team hasn't given him the opportunity

as 100% answers.

Honestly it's both.

I'd go 85% on Bennett, and then a 15% on the team for some peculiar handling of the player over the years. He does seem to be the first one to move down the lineup when the whole team isn't playing well after being given a spot on the lineup for the first time in weeks.

This just isn't a on/off switch. Use the dimmer!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

...Regardless, comparing Mangiapane and Bennett is apples and oranges. Eatbread is a goal scoring sniper winger. Bennett is more of a two-way centre. Expecting the same results from such different players is foolish. I say this as someone who wanted Eatbread in the top six from day one. But you're essentially comparing a camalleri type to a conroy type. They're markedly different players. Does craig conroy score 40 goals on the wing? Of course not. But he still brings a unique skillset that helps the team and helps his high quality linemates. I believe that is something Bennett could do for either Tkachuk or Gaudreau.

I am not comparing Mangiapane to Bennett. Mangiapane (and Dube) continue to enter this conversation as examples of players who grabbed hold of their opportunities and never let go.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Venn Diagram of people yearning for more Sam Bennett and the people yearning for Gaudreau to be traded, to be a perfect circle.

Not me.

I'm hoping they can deal Bennett for some picks, he's a decent bottom six guy but we already have too much cap allotted to bottom six forwards.

I also want Gaudreau traded, but only if the return is massive and only if they can sign Hall, because to me that's proper asset management, combined with my belief that Gaudreau will be heading east as a UFA.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Spencer Foo played centre? There are an awful lot of excuses for Bennett's lack of production.

I am asking in part because I am unsure, but I seem to recall that Bennett was moved to the top line to replace Monahan, that there was a buzz of anticipation surrounding this opportunity, and that he didn't play particularly well. Can someone provide numbers to clarify?

He didn't even get full games. Every single instance he gets shuffled off in game, spun around and slotted everywhere.. Like I said, little.to no run way aside from Hartley.
.

[ComixZone]

I think 85% on Bennett is a bit high.

I'd look at it as 50% on Bennett, 25% on Treliving, and 25% on the ever-rotating coaching chair filled with below-NHL quality head coaches.

Tree screwed the coaches by signing Brouwer and Neal just as bad as the coaches screwed Bennett by playing him with them - which probably shifts the overall failure %'s to 50% on Bennett and 50% on Treliving, as the only coach who wasn't hired by Tree had Bennett on a solid development path.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Spencer Foo played centre? There are an awful lot of excuses for Bennett's lack of production.

I am asking in part because I am unsure, but I seem to recall that Bennett was moved to the top line to replace Monahan, that there was a buzz of anticipation surrounding this opportunity, and that he didn't play particularly well. Can someone provide numbers to clarify?

Bennett was moved to that line - for about a game maybe two. And then Nick Shore was. And then Mark Jankowski was. And the right winger on that line was consistently Foo.

And it's not as if Bennett was utilized as a 1C just because he spent some ES icetime on that line. I seem to recall Gulutzan using Gaudreau - Foo as his 4v4 forward pairing, and Nick Shore was the center for the powerplay. And the whole team was in a horrid funk - not limited to Gaudreau but even Backlund and such. Isolating Bennett during that stretch is cherrypicking. Gulutzan was unable to get any results from the entire 23 man roster.

Calling it an opportunity for Bennett is disingenuous.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Bennett has looked good there in two intra-squad scrimmages, and he looked alright in two games against marginal teams while Ryan was sidelined. And I don't think Ryan's age has anything at all to do with this decision.

The reason to continue to play Ryan on the third line is because the coaches know it works. They seem to be open to trying things out with Bennett there (so far), but I don't think a couple of intrasquad games are proof of anything significant.

I agree there is no proof of anything yet.

Stick with it and see what you have there so you have the body of work.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by dammage79

He didn't even get full games. Every single instance he gets shuffled off in game, spun around and slotted everywhere....

Because the coaches hate him? I distinctly remember him not looking particularly good on the top line. When that happens, a player is pretty likely to get shuffled-down.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I think 85% on Bennett is a bit high.

I'd look at it as 50% on Bennett, 25% on Treliving, and 25% on the ever-rotating coaching chair filled with below-NHL quality head coaches.

Tree screwed the coaches by signing Brouwer and Neal just as bad as the coaches screwed Bennett by playing him with them - which probably shifts the overall failure %'s to 50% on Bennett and 50% on Treliving, as the only coach who wasn't hired by Tree had Bennett on a solid development path.

And yet, here you are seemingly ready to completely absolve Bennett of his 50% liability for his development.

[SeanCharles]

I feel like this conversation has gotten off track.

For me it’s just about keeping Bennett at 3C and putting Ryan at 4C.

I don’t want to debate his development and who’s fault it is he hasn’t reached his potential.

Just play him where he looks like he may excel and go from there.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Because the coaches hate him? I distinctly remember him not looking particularly good on the top line. When that happens, a player is pretty likely to get shuffled-down.

Jesus. I didn't say the coaches hated him did I. At all, ever. I said he gets no runway to work it out or get traction. Of course he didn't look good for two games, he never gets any more than that. Never. Never never never. His entire stint has been a massive, confidence sapping experience. And every small opportunity he gets theres this insane amount of pressure to perform that he honestly can't even get the jitters out. I'm not saying anything more than that. And like I said, his leash is so tight, if he doesn't look good for 3 or 4 shifts, its off into the blender.

Ffs its like talking to a brick wall with some of you.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I agree there is no proof of anything yet.

Stick with it and see what you have there so you have the body of work.

Which is something that the coaches appear willing to do in the early-going. We will see what happens, but I have no doubt that if Bennett is moved back down to line #4, and if Ryan is put back together with his regular line mates, there will be no shortage of posters here bemoaning his poor treatment.

For what it is worth, in the little bits of highlights from yesterday's scrimmage I saw Ryan looked very good—even while playing with "scrubs."

[Bingo]

I do think the Flames "could" be deeper with Bennett centering that third line and Ryan moving down ... and I'm not suggesting that's on merit.

Bennett seems to have chemistry with those guys and Ryan would have a bigger impact on improving the fourth line than Bennett would.

Team would have less of a drop off this way in my opinion.

Add in the fact that Bennett is likely to elevate his aggression again given it's playoffs and the effect that could have on Lucic would be fascinating.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I feel like this conversation has gotten off track.

For me it’s just about keeping Bennett at 3C and putting Ryan at 4C.

I don’t want to debate his development and who’s fault it is he hasn’t reached his potential.

Just play him where he looks like he may excel and go from there.

I think everyone wants this. I sure as hell would be thrilled if it worked out this way. But if it doesn't, is that on the coaches? Is that on Bennett's line mates? Is that on Bennett himself?

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Which is something that the coaches appear willing to do in the early-going. We will see what happens, but I have no doubt that if Bennett is moved back down to line #4, and if Ryan is put back together with his regular line mates, there will be no shortage of posters here bemoaning his poor treatment.

For what it is worth, in the little bits of highlights from yesterday's scrimmage I saw Ryan looked very good—even while playing with "scrubs."

You are probably right.

For me, if they put Bennett back down to the 4th line then keep him at centre and bench Jankowski.

The one thing I know I’m sick of seeing is the Bennett-Jankowski-whoever line.

The only times that looked any good was with Versteeg and Jagr and they were broken down so it faded quickly.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I do think the Flames "could" be deeper with Bennett centering that third line and Ryan moving down ... and I'm not suggesting that's on merit.

Bennett seems to have chemistry with those guys and Ryan would have a bigger impact on improving the fourth line than Bennett would.

Team would have less of a drop off this way in my opinion.

Add in the fact that Bennett is likely to elevate his aggression again given it's playoffs and the effect that could have on Lucic would be fascinating.

I'm not sure Lucic is the right fit for that line. He wasn't really that good this year. I'd rather put more speed there, someone like Czarnik opposite Dube.

[Robbob]

With Ryan on the 4th line, I would like to see if you could re-create the 4th line from a couple years ago. Rinaldo-Ryan-Czarnik would have a lot of the same elements as Hathaway-Ryan-Mangipane. That line always had a good combination with speed, tenacity, hockey IQ, and underrated skill.

[BigErnSalute_16]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What makes you think so?

I for one have long been a proponent of moving Gaudreau this summer in an effort to maximize his value. I am also not convinced that Bennett is a top-six player, and I most definitely do not believe in the conspiracy theories regarding his poor development.

It's ridiculous when posters draw X=Y correlations like this on this site.

I'm not saying Bennett is totally the Flames answer and we should immediately give him a top six role (although there are a couple options I'd like to see tried at least) but I am saying he is better than how he is being used and I think the logic is there to think that Bennett on the third line and Ryan on the fourth makes us a deeper team.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Bennett has looked good there in two intra-squad scrimmages, and he looked alright in two games against marginal teams while Ryan was sidelined. And I don't think Ryan's age has anything at all to do with this decision.

The reason to continue to play Ryan on the third line is because the coaches know it works. They seem to be open to trying things out with Bennett there (so far), but I don't think a couple of intrasquad games are proof of anything significant.

I have to admit I thought it was a couple more than two games that Ryan was hurt but still we shouldn't discount what we are seeing just because it has been a couple scrimmages and a couple regular season games. He has looked good in that role. Worth trying it out, especially if that means we see Ryan giving a boost to the 4th line.

[SuperMatt18]

Mangiapane deserves the opportunity he got, but I think there is an argument to say that Bennett deserves the same opportunity.

Bennett hasn't lived up to his draft hype, but he's also had very limited playing time with any of Calgary's top three centers (Monahan, Backlund, Ryan) over the last 2 seasons.

Bennett+Monahan:
TOI- 104 Minutes
GF%: 20.0%
xGF: 43.5%
SH%: 2.27%
SV%: .935

That pairing hasn't worked and has rightly been used sparingly.

Bennett+Backlund:
TOI-344 Minutes
GF%: 58.1%
xGF: 53.8%
SH%: 8.49%
SV%: .928

Those are pretty good numbers, but Bennett hasn't gotten consistent time with Backlund.

Bennett+Ryan:
TOI: 305 Minutes
GF%: 60.9%
xGF%: 54.7%
SH%: 8.59%
SV%: .938

Great numbers on a line with Ryan too, but once again only limited minutes.

Instead Bennett has mostly been used on a line with Janko/Spare Parts and not one of the Flames top 3 centers.

Bennett w/o Monahan,Ryan,Backlund
TOI: 620 Minutes
GF%: 38.3%
xGF%: 53.2%
SH%: 6.12%
SV%: .907

So Bennett has been bad with Monahan but has had great results when he's been on the wing of either Ryan or Backlund. And even then he's been able to put up good advanced stats way from any of the Flames top 3 centers (53.2% xGF%) but has ran into a PDO bender that has hurt his counting stats (.968 PDO on a lower shooting percentage which isn't surprising play with 4th liners).

With all of this considered Bennett still has the third best xGF of all Regular Flames Forwards still on the Roster. The biggest problem for him is it happens to be behind two other primary LWs.

1) Mangiapane - 55.3% xGF%
2) Tkachuk - 53.4% xGF%
3) Bennett - 52.9% xGF%

And he has the second lowest on ice shooting percentage of all the regular forwards in that time.

1) Jankowski - 6.15%
2) Bennett - 7.01%

Honestly Bennett is still a guy that is ready and primed to break out if he moves to a team with more opportunity IMO. He really hasn't had that chance with top linemates in Calgary, and even then he's put up good advanced stats that have been undone by Shooting/Save Percentage.