Minneapolis PD Suffocate Unarmed Black Man Who Later Dies in Hospital

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

If that were the case, why does knowing the guy make a difference? MBates would be a better source, but I don’t think you have the case right for first degree. 2nd, maybe.

Knowing a guy makes a difference because the defense against 1st degree murder in this case would normally be 'they didn't know each other, the officer had no ill will towards the victim, the death was purely the unfortunate outcome of a police officer doing his job, he would have had no reason to wish to kill the victim'

If they knew each other at work that defence goes out the window.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

Wrong again. Why would 2nd degree murder even exist if what you say is true?

Because the vast amount of murders are committed in anger, where the murderer didn't think about the consequence of their actions but would know their action would likely cause death.

The basic defense against 1st degree murder is anger, and as you might imagine almost all murders happen in anger, which is why 1st degree charges are rare and difficult, usually they are restricted to situations where the victim is restrained and the murderer continues to harm them in a manner that he knows will cause death, serial killers etc

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Knowing a guy makes a difference because the defense against 1st degree murder in this case would normally be 'they didn't know each other, the officer had no ill will towards the victim, the death was purely the unfortunate outcome of a police officer doing his job, he would have had no reason to wish to kill the victim'

If they knew each other at work that defence goes out the window.

No...that is not at all what that is.

1st degree would be "im going out of my way today to find George Floyd with the intention of taking his life".

There is no way that is what happened here because there is no way that Chauvin knew he would be sent to a call where forgery was suspected on Mr. Floyd.

The charges brought are the charges they feel they can prove...be happy with that as had they brought anything over reaching, its likely that the scumbag walks when all is said and done.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Because the vast amount of murders are committed in anger, where the murderer didn't think about the consequence of their actions but would know their action would likely cause death.

The basic defense against 1st degree murder is anger, and as you might imagine almost all murders happen in anger, which is why 1st degree charges are rare and difficult, usually they are restricted to situations where the victim is restrained and the murderer continues to harm them in a manner that he knows will cause death, serial killers etc

But you said "but premeditation is literally the action of deciding to kill someone, under any circumstance other than self defence". So it doesn't matter that it was in anger and that they didn't think about the consequences. They decided to kill, so according to you that's 1st degree murder.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by transplant99

No...that is not at all what that is.

1st degree would be "im going out of my way today to find George Floyd with the intention of taking his life".

There is no way that is what happened here because there is no way that Chauvin knew he would be sent to a call where forgery was suspected on Mr. Floyd.

The charges brought are the charges they feel they can prove...be happy with that as had they brought anything over reaching, its likely that the scumbag walks when all is said and done.

I would be happy with anything frankly, I am just trying to point out premeditation doesn't require planning at all, he doesn't have to intend to kill the victim earlier in the day, if he finds himself in a position where he thinks to himself 'if I just put my knee here and don't move I will kill him' that, while difficult to prove, is premeditation

[Acey]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

usually they are restricted to situations where the victim is restrained and the murderer continues to harm them in a manner that he knows will cause death, serial killers etc

...particularly heinous deaths that are not planned are sometimes 1st degree murders but they are usually restricted to cases were premeditation is proven, since that's literally the definition of 1st degree murder. Minnesota is one of only a couple states that has 3rd degree murder. You could argue second degree but based on what we know as of know, seems risky. 3rd seems relatively easy to prove.

In almost every other state there is likely not a murder charge, just manslaughter.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I mean, given what we already know, would anyone be surprised that those exist?

I wish they did, as that would simplify this whole thing. Since they most likely don't, I'm just being realistic.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

But you said "but premeditation is literally the action of deciding to kill someone, under any circumstance other than self defence". So it doesn't matter that it was in anger and that they didn't think about the consequences. They decided to kill, so according to you that's 1st degree murder.

no because the law allows for you to do something without thinking, that is the purpose of 2nd degree, you were in a fight with your wife, angry or drunk, you stab her with a kitchen knife in an act of rage. It was an act a reasonable person would know would cause death, I think the laws explanation does include the phrase 'a reasonable person' but you didn't plan her death, you acted without thinking.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

no because the law allows for you to do something without thinking, that is the purpose of 2nd degree, you were in a fight with your wife, angry or drunk, you stab her with a kitchen knife in an act of rage. It was an act a reasonable person would know would cause death, I think the laws explanation does include the phrase 'a reasonable person' but you didn't plan her death, you acted without thinking.

You can literally look up what the definitions are on the internet. So maybe do that. You don't just get to revise the definitions of degrees of murder based on your personal opinion. These are laws on the books, not philosophical theory.

[Acey]

Actual clarification of murder charges in Minnesota instead of massively flawed interpretations:

First-Degree Murder
Like in many other states, Minnesota considers first-degree murder to be the most serious and heinous form of murder. Due to this classification, not all murder charges are filed as first-degree murder. First-degree murder charges in Minnesota have aggravating factors. Sometimes first-degree murder is based on the identity of the victim. For example killing a spouse after continued domestic abuse, killing a child, killing a cop, killing a judge or killing a witness to thwart his or her testimony in another case are often charged as first-degree murder. In other cases, first-degree charges arise due to the defendant’s conduct. For example, the premeditated murder in which the defendant considers, plans or prepares for the killing beforehand or killing someone during a sexual assault, burglary, aggravated robbery, kidnapping, arson or act of terrorism may be charged as a first-degree murder case.

Since Minnesota does not have the death penalty, the harshest punishment for those convicted of first-degree murder is life in prison. An element of the first-degree murder statute is the intent to kill.

Second-Degree Murder
Second-degree murder can be an intentional killing, but it is not as serious as first-degree murder. Second degree murder can be charged when a defendant intentionally kills another human being but the murder is not premediated. Second-degree murder may result when a person kills out of an intense emotional response or impulse. Additionally, killing someone during a drive-by shooting, killing someone during the commission of a crime that is not sexual assault or killing someone unintentionally while intended to inflict great physical harm to a victim for whom an order of protection was obtained can result in second-degree murder charges. Second-degree murder has a maximum penalty of 40 years in prison.

Third-Degree Murder
Third-degree murder falls between manslaughter and third-degree murder charges. This murder is not based on having the intent to kill. Third-degree murder is often charged as a depraved heart or mind crime. This charge can arise when a person fires a gun in a crowd without intending to kill anyone, for example. Murder is charged when a person is killed and the defendant has an indifference to the sanctity of human life. This charge may also result if a person sells bad drugs. The maximum penalty for murder is up to 25 years in prison. If the death resulted because of a Schedule I or II drug sale, a fine of up to $40,000 may result.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/mu...innesota-43141

Again, only 3 states have 3rd degree murder.

[PeteMoss]

Appears main difference in Minnesota between 2nd and 3rd degree murder is if you intended to kill the person

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

You can literally look up what the definitions are on the internet. So maybe do that. You don't just get to revise the definitions of degrees of murder based on your personal opinion. These are laws on the books, not philosophical theory.

Its not just my opinion, I have had to take a course on this, I actually have had to work with more murderers than you could shake a stick at.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Appears main difference in Minnesota between 2nd and 3rd degree murder is if you intended to kill the person

Yeah. People are saying "they worked together and had beef so this is first degree" but based on these definitions it wouldn't even mean that, let alone the fact that I haven't even seen evidence of this actual beef.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Its not just my opinion, I have had to take a course on this, I actually have had to work with more murderers than you could shake a stick at.

I can respect that, but based on the clarification from Minnesota lawyers and what we know at this point, these are the correct charges at this point.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Its not just my opinion, I have had to take a course on this, I actually have had to work with more murderers than you could shake a stick at.

That's horrifying.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

That's horrifying.

No, I wasn't charging them, just supervising them in the community, rapists and child molesters as well, it was always amusing when I had to do line of sight supervision on a 14 or 15 year pedophile and the general public are thinking I'm the pedo because I am following the real pedophile into the McDicks washrooms to make sure he doesn't offend again.

I have done some odd things for work in my life

[MissTeeks]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1266450133635432449

https://twitter.com/user/status/1266450664378466310

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Knowing a guy makes a difference because the defense against 1st degree murder in this case would normally be 'they didn't know each other, the officer had no ill will towards the victim, the death was purely the unfortunate outcome of a police officer doing his job, he would have had no reason to wish to kill the victim'

If they knew each other at work that defence goes out the window.

Did they know each other at work? Here's an interesting article speaking to about how much they might have known each other (and the answer is 'probably maybe in passing, kind of sort of')

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carliep.../#4803edf174d8

[transplant99]

So the preliminary autopsy suggests he did not expire due to strangulation nor asphyxiation, and that pre-existing medical conditions and any intoxicants in is body played a part.

I have to believe at this point that the charges laid were made with that information available to the prosecutors responsible.

There will be hurdles to convicting this guy for sure, but that in itself will be a big one.

#### just got worse

Contradictory to the thread title:

The Hennepin County Medical Examiner (ME) conducted Mr. Floyd's autopsy on May 26, 2020. The full report of the ME is pending but the ME has made the following preliminary findings. The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death.

I have a feeling this is going to get worse.

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Oh yeah because there’s no way the ME could have a conflict of interest here.

Might as well have declared the pavement at fault since it was equally as responsible as mr. murdering cop.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Oh yeah because there’s no way the ME could have a conflict of interest here.

Might as well have declared the pavement at fault since it was equally as responsible as mr. murdering cop.

Wait, you're dismissing the findings of a medical examiner because he didn't find what you thought he would? That's pretty dumb. Or are you kidding? It's hard to tell.

I don't see why the ME has any reason to make #### up and risk his career in the process. Regardless, the police officers are directly responsible for his death, even if there were other contributing factors besides kneeling on him.