[PGT] Yep, we’re as soft as toilet paper. Flames lose to bottom feeding Sharks 3-1.

[Duffalufagus]

This is a bad hockey team. The numbers don’t lie. Unless a crazy deal falls in his lap, Tre has to wait until the offseason. We don’t have pieces that contenders want (that we are willing to part with) to make a deal before the deadline. Gaudreau has to be moved after July 1. He won’t resign, and the team loses leverage every day that he gets closer to free agency.

Play it out. Retool (again ffs) in the offseason.

This team blows. As simple as that.

[Flash Walken]

The only thing that makes me want to keep Treliving around is that his best trades are player for pick deals and this team is as ripe for a high yield sell off as they've been since the lockout.

It's hard for me to see where treliving ends and ownership begins. Obviously somewhere in the chain of command of the Zucker non-deal.

I think if left to his own devices he might be a better GM than with the situation he's got in Calgary, but then I have to question that because he just signed on again. It's obviously a very politically demanding position, maneuvering King and Murray is probably a bigger part of the job than maneuvering other GMs.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Something finally clicked in me watching this game.

A number of these guys actually, genuinely, don't care. You can tell by what they're doing out there, and the pace at which they're doing it. 4 shots in the third says it all. This is putting aside the terribly flawed and ambiguous system that they're employing.

I'm all for selling and retooling now. And that's unusual for me given the standings, I'd usually chirp people that want to go that route while in a playoff hunt. But there's no way, there's just no way this roster, the same one that folded against the Avs has taken any kind of step forward since then. They're just as fragile.

Recognizing this now, it's clear to me that we need a couple of transplants in this team's core. I sincerely hope Treliving recognizes that and is honest with himself about what needs to be done.

Screw scraping into a playoff spot on streaky, inconsistent efforts. We have to aim for higher and for the bigger picture.

I'd rather have hope for this team's future because we sold and collected picks/prospects and watch the Oilers play in April than spend assets to repeat last spring all over again.

I suspect Treliving may be honest with himself, but unfortunately he's likely way past the number of gimmes allotted to turn that honesty into public honesty and major re-tool/rebuild reality.

He's likely at the point now where he has to put on a brave face and suggest we're almost there, just need a few tweaks. I highly doubt ownership will let him do anything drastic, even if it's the right course.

They've been patiently waiting to cash in on playoff games during Brad's tenure and he's given them like 5 or 6 in 6 years.

[timbit]

Everybody seems to have an opinion/excuse on the one year (started late last January) continuous demise of the team’s most important offensive player.

Poor Coaching/ systems/ strategies
Lack of quality line mates/ teammates
Team toughness around him.
Increased frustration level.
Lack of penalty calls.

The team has changed coaches, added team toughness, brought his childhood pal and teammate up.

Yet the contrast from 2/4 /2018 - 2/4 /2019 comparative to 2/5/ 2019- 2/5/2020 is startling!

The former time frame he was exceptional.
99 pts, 8th in NHL scoring in 81 GP., 1.22 PPG , +8

The latter time frame he has been very disappointing, at best.
66 pts, 46th in NHL scoring in 83 GP, .80 PPG, -16

Have other key team mates dropped off over the same time period? Absolutely.

None to the extent that Johnny’s production has diminished, over the stated time frames.

Considering that Johnny has been considered an elite NHL line and team driver on offence , game breaker, for the past 4 or 5 regular seasons, this is a sad, perplexing and crucial problem that needs a solution...pronto.

Sometime in late January last season, something happened to Johnny’s game and possibly other parts of his life.

My opinion, by observance of his play over the last 12 months.

He has become a very timid player, that plays a perimeter game with specific attention to avoiding puck battles and any opposition physical confrontations in puck races.

He has turned into a player who has little regard for team success. If he did, frustrated or not he would have changed in order to help the team get to better places.

Hard to believe that both head coaches have not relayed the same message to Johnny.

Not too late, but the sun is setting in a hurry.

[TheSquatch]

Johnny's played awful lately, and hasn't looked genuinely good in a long time to my eyes. But Gio's game hasn't been good this year. Backlund hasn't been good this year. Monahan hasn't been real good this year.

That's big, big pieces, that's long-time dudes, core members, taking a step back all at once.

No idea why, but it does not bode well.

Mangiapane is such a standout with a little speed and a little intensity, it's embarrassing.

[browna]

Originally Posted by timbit

Everybody seems to have an opinion/excuse on the one year (started late last January) continuous demise of the team’s most important offensive player.

Poor Coaching/ systems/ strategies
Lack of quality line mates/ teammates
Team toughness around him.
Increased frustration level.
Lack of penalty calls.

The team has changed coaches, added team toughness, brought his childhood pal and teammate up.

Yet the contrast from 2/4 /2018 - 2/4 /2019 comparative to 2/5/ 2019- 2/5/2020 is startling!

....

Not too late, but the sun is setting in a hurry.

Good post.

And there is a huge element to how Johnny goes, so do the Flames.
He ran the top line, and 1st half of last year with a bonafide top winger on the other side in, and the uptempo style Peters brought in.

His dominance and that top line dominance in the first 4 months of last year tactically pushed teams back in the zone, which allowed our already more active defense to further step in and pinch in, which generated more turnovers and offence and goals. Etc etc.

As a result, the Flames had the lead in most games, had the other teams on their heels and hesitant in most games by the third period, and the collective swagger grew and became infectious confidence all over the ice.

When the slump started in late Jan, the whole top line went away for a week or two. There was undoubtedly some adjustment by teams in the league to the Flames style. In this period too, the second line proved inadequate, the further indications that Backlund was not the answer there. Treliving tried at the deadline to rectify that, didn’t on the Zucker deal, and in the playoffs became painfully clear, with the top line stifled, and the 2nd line on for 3 of the 4 GWG against, including the killer game 2 which would’ve made that a a total different series.

But back to Johnny, yes his dip caused the dip of everything and everyone else, which forced others to try and make up his production, and when he dipped and didn’t have that dominance, all the other parts of the Flames tactics and what had worked for them, suddenly didn’t...pinching cost them for the D because no longer were teams worried about the top line dominating them in the zone, and the Flames D ends up being too far up in the zone and having to make too much room back on a turnover.

Did something or someone at the all star game trigger him to a different mindset?
Did the Flames missing out on his buddy Kevin Hayes going to the Jets sour him a bit?
Personal or family stuff?

And since then, Flames in general have tried to fill the gap. Treliving has been unsuccessful in offseason retooling. A hangover for sure (ask Tampa) in the unlikely task of trying to replicate last regular season didn’t help, and some players’ games have been exposed this year, without the top line able to regular pull their weight (and more than their weight) and win games all on their own, as they did last year and for years before that...a second line which is in tatters and even less reliable than the top line. And without the top line dominating teams, the active D didn’t work anywhere near to the same effect as it does when the other team is worried about the top forward, and then the forwards have to try and create the turnovers thst they capitalized on last year from the agressive d, and that was a totally different style than they had last season...and that cascade of events made the Flames look ordinary the first two months.

Add in a shock coaching change, back to a players coach who is not the type of coach these players need, also now scrambling to find a quick fix, and it’s unravelling a bit quicker than one would like to see.

But, time for JG to get over things, and a I think part of that is a coach that can provide stability and consistency and a stern attitude, but one that has proven to win i this league. Johnny and others still may need to be dragged into the game by the coach who pushes buttons at the right time. Add to the Flames get that guy that BT has wanted since the trade deadline last year, a finisher for that top line, and or a guy that can step in and set up a formidable and consistent second line too.

[81MC]

Apathy has set in, and I hate it. I don’t like not being an engaged fan, I like looking forward to the next game and talking about it the following day. I like wanting to go to the dome and wearing the jerseys. Last year seems like a bit of a cruel joke, a glimmer of hope for a competitive and fun hockey team.

I don’t even mind sucking, But I can’t bring myself to care when you look at the (perceived) lack of effort. Some of these guys made several tens of thousands of dollars a game, but the product looks like that’s a given. Even the statistically not-good ‘find a way Flames’ we’re inspiring, and seemed to want to earn that cheque.

I’m just bummed out that I don’t even want to spend more money than I can afford just to go see the game live, or spend my evening glued to the tv. A big emotional letdown I suppose.

[mikephoen]

Could Johnny be playing through an injury? Maybe his dad is still having health problems? Mad that Tkachuk is making more than him now?

It's got to be something. It seems unlikely he just stopped being an elite player overnight for no reason.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Could Johnny be playing through an injury? Maybe his dad is still having health problems? Mad that Tkachuk is making more than him now?

It's got to be something. It seems unlikely he just stopped being an elite player overnight for no reason.

I think it is something.

An injury would explain it, and the team would be silent about it to make sure the injured part isn’t targeted.

I doubt he is angry over salary.

And it’s possible that his off ice activities are hampering his abilities.

But I agree it must be something, players of his ability don’t slump for 90 odd games. He certainly doesn’t look right.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I do not understand which RFA signings are great outside of Lindholm. Great seems to imply that you are getting more value than other GM’s are getting for similar signings. Monahan signed a similar deal to every other RFA that year. Gaudreau lacked leverage in his negotiations they reduced his ability to get more money but that contract could easily be put in the good category that summer. Hamilton and Hanifin were basically going each at the going rate at the time. Hamilton has proven to outperform his deal but Hanifin has not done that at this stage. Tkachuk was the exact same deal as most other RFAs this offseason with no noticeable savings. Rittich was signed to take him right to UFA at 2.75

Other RFA contracts include Bouma’s 3 year 6.6 million, Bennett’s 2.55 million a year, Ferland on a two year deal, Lazar’s two year deal.

Out of all of those deals I see one great deal, a bunch of deals that are average or the same as any other GM signed that offseason, and a stinker in Bouma. It seems like a pretty average record in my opinion. I would say that Cheveldayoff has a much better record on RFA’s for instance.

We see GMs panic and sign their players for more than market all the time, look at the mess in Toronto.

So you can't just discount Monahan and Gaudreau because he used his leverage and made sure their contracts were in and around the ones signed previously and not stepping stones for the NHLPA.

TJ Brodie was another great contract as well.

Hanifin is having a tough week, but his contract is solid. You mentioned Lindholm.

Bennett is pretty much market for his career production to date, Lazar is a 13th forward and inconsequential.

Bouma is the zit, which he learned from in moving on from Coburne, and I'm guessing playing hardball with Jankowski this summer.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

We see GMs panic and sign their players for more than market all the time, look at the mess in Toronto.

So you can't just discount Monahan and Gaudreau because he used his leverage and made sure their contracts were in and around the ones signed previously and not stepping stones for the NHLPA.

TJ Brodie was another great contract as well.

Hanifin is having a tough week, but his contract is solid. You mentioned Lindholm.

Bennett is pretty much market for his career production to date, Lazar is a 13th forward and inconsequential.

Bouma is the zit, which he learned from in moving on from Coburne, and I'm guessing playing hardball with Jankowski this summer.

Not to harp on this, but that has to be bit of a stretch....no?

Career 29 pt players are 2.5 million per?

You may be correct and i have no way hw one would actually figure that out, but I would have assumed those guys are generally a million less per season.

I thought that his last deal was at that number because there was still "potential" for him to provide more offense.

I agree though that Treliving has been very good for the most part in contract negotiations with RFA's. Its the UFA guys he simply got clobbered on a few times now.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Not to harp on this, but that has to be bit of a stretch....no?

Career 29 pt players are 2.5 million per?

You may be correct and i have no way hw one would actually figure that out, but I would have assumed those guys are generally a million less per season.

I thought that his last deal was at that number because there was still "potential" for him to provide more offense.

I agree though that Treliving has been very good for the most part in contract negotiations with RFA's. Its the UFA guys he simply got clobbered on a few times now.

He's off this year, but his points per 60 in the previous seasons had him in and around player 7 on the average (6.8 last season) NHL roster believe it or not.

This year he's forward 11 on the average team and certainly over paid.

But if you apply his production from the previous season which was the base of his contract negotiation his cap hit comes in at $2.9M

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

We see GMs panic and sign their players for more than market all the time, look at the mess in Toronto.

So you can't just discount Monahan and Gaudreau because he used his leverage and made sure their contracts were in and around the ones signed previously and not stepping stones for the NHLPA.

TJ Brodie was another great contract as well.

Hanifin is having a tough week, but his contract is solid. You mentioned Lindholm.

Bennett is pretty much market for his career production to date, Lazar is a 13th forward and inconsequential.

Bouma is the zit, which he learned from in moving on from Coburne, and I'm guessing playing hardball with Jankowski this summer.

I would say you’re being a tad generous in your assessment compared to how I would look at it. I don’t have as favorable a view of the Hanifin and Bennett contracts. But in the case of Hanifin, where you acquire an RFA in a trade where you give up a ton, I understand the pressure to sign the guy long term.

I agree there are no big mistakes in the contracts you mention but I see that as a small positive, not a big one. Yes GM’s make mistakes all the time but GM’s get fired all the time too.

My overall view of Treliving is very mixed but it’s also hard to evaluate a GM without knowing what they are thinking and working on. I don’t think he’s moved the needle much in his 6 years, considering he inherited a young team with some decent assets and a ton of cap flexibility. The inaction over the last 18 months is a real black mark for me as this team has stagnated. That’s on him.

If I’m the owner my evaluation of him hinges entirely upon what he is saying and working on now, compared to what he thought was important over the last few years.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

We see GMs panic and sign their players for more than market all the time, look at the mess in Toronto.

So you can't just discount Monahan and Gaudreau because he used his leverage and made sure their contracts were in and around the ones signed previously and not stepping stones for the NHLPA.

TJ Brodie was another great contract as well.

Hanifin is having a tough week, but his contract is solid. You mentioned Lindholm.

Bennett is pretty much market for his career production to date, Lazar is a 13th forward and inconsequential.

Bouma is the zit, which he learned from in moving on from Coburne, and I'm guessing playing hardball with Jankowski this summer.

But you said he was great, I am assuming that would put him in the top 3 GM’s in the league at RFA signings.

When you look around the league I think Chevaldayoff is definitely better with Connor, Scheifele, Ehlers and Hellebuyck signed to better RFA contracts.

Jim Benning has an impressive record with Horvat and Boeser signed to very impressive contracts.

Yzerman was great with Kucherov, Johnson, Killorn and Hedman signed to very good deals.

Chiarelli clearly did well with his RFA contract to Draisaitl

Joe Sakic is also in the great category with MacKinnon and Landeskog, Compher and Girard

Poile was great with Forsberg, Arvidsson, Jarnkrok, Josi, Ekholm and Ellis

The Pietranangelo contract probably makes Armstrong great, with the Schwartz contract being good as well

Tallon was great with Hubredeau, Barkov, Trochek, Vatrano, Matheson

I would personally put at least 7 of those GMs above Treliving and I suspect there are more. I would guess Treliving is somewhere between a high of 9th best in his time to a low of 17th as I did not go through every team but just the ones I was pretty sure were better than BT, which has beat would put him above average but definitely not great. If he is the 9th best GM at RFA signings, his greatness would be akin to calling the 120th highest scoring forward in the league as “great”.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

But you said he was great, I am assuming that would put him in the top 3 GM’s in the league at RFA signings.

When you look around the league I think Chevaldayoff is definitely better with Connor, Scheifele, Ehlers and Hellebuyck signed to better RFA contracts.

Jim Benning has an impressive record with Horvat and Boeser signed to very impressive contracts.

Yzerman was great with Kucherov, Johnson, Killorn and Hedman signed to very good deals.

Chiarelli clearly did well with his RFA contract to Draisaitl

Joe Sakic is also in the great category with MacKinnon and Landeskog, Compher and Girard

Poile was great with Forsberg, Arvidsson, Jarnkrok, Josi, Ekholm and Ellis

The Pietranangelo contract probably makes Armstrong great, with the Schwartz contract being good as well

Tallon was great with Hubredeau, Barkov, Trochek, Vatrano, Matheson

I would personally put at least 7 of those GMs above Treliving and I suspect there are more. I would guess Treliving is somewhere between a high of 9th best in his time to a low of 17th as I did not go through every team but just the ones I was pretty sure were better than BT, which has beat would put him above average but definitely not great. If he is the 9th best GM at RFA signings, his greatness would be akin to calling the 120th highest scoring forward in the league as “great”.

You're certainly welcome to your opinion. In fact I started this whole thing off saying I get that some don't want him as the architect of the change that is coming.

But yeah I'd say he's great, you don't have to.

But using Draisaitl is an interesting one as that contract was a massive over pay and partially responsible for the boost in contract values to RFAs ever since.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You're certainly welcome to your opinion. In fact I started this whole thing off saying I get that some don't want him as the architect of the change that is coming.

But yeah I'd say he's great, you don't have to.

But using Draisaitl is an interesting one as that contract was a massive over pay and partially responsible for the boost in contract values to RFAs ever since.

Have you looked at the league stats lately? Draisaitl leads the league in points?

Isn't the point of long term deals to pay more up front to get benefit of a good contract in later seasons?

Doesn't the draisaitl contract look like an absolute steal right now?

[Flash Walken]

Imagine if the oilers had to pay draisaitl this year because he was finishing year 3 of his rfa deal like tkachuk just signed.

The whole point of giving term is to capitalize on increased value/production at the same rate.

2 years from now who is going to have a better contract, tlachuk or draisaitl?

Man, I can't believe you're going back to the draisaitl well in a year he is in Pace to finish with 120+ points

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Have you looked at the league stats lately? Draisaitl leads the league in points?

Isn't the point of long term deals to pay more up front to get benefit of a good contract in later seasons?

Doesn't the draisaitl contract look like an absolute steal right now?

No. Draisaitl is paid like a top line centre when he’s a top line winger who can’t support his own play - he needs McDavid. The thing is that there was no need to sign him for that when Pasternak signed for much less just days later IIRC.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Have you looked at the league stats lately? Draisaitl leads the league in points?

Isn't the point of long term deals to pay more up front to get benefit of a good contract in later seasons?

Doesn't the draisaitl contract look like an absolute steal right now?

If you want to give the guy credit for luck, sure!

But it was a massive overpay at the time. Hell he didn't even pay him positionally correct as he treated him like a franchise center when he was a winger playing and only producing when playing with a generational talent.

Can I assume the first few lines were just honest questions assuming I was unaware, or were you trying to be an ass again?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Imagine if the oilers had to pay draisaitl this year because he was finishing year 3 of his rfa deal like tkachuk just signed.

The whole point of giving term is to capitalize on increased value/production at the same rate.

2 years from now who is going to have a better contract, tlachuk or draisaitl?

Man, I can't believe you're going back to the draisaitl well in a year he is in Pace to finish with 120+ points

I didn't even bring Draisaitl up ... so certainly not me going to a "well".

I don't personally think it's a good example of a shrewd contract signing. It worked out, and that happens, but it was a "please stay in Edmonton long term, pretty please!" contract.