[PGT] Oilers 8 Flames 3 everything is fine

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I find it a bit strange reading people complaining about Ward. This team has consistently exhibited these no shows under multiple coaches. Do people really think Ward put a game plan on the blackboard and it strategically fell apart twice in the *first* minute? Not a chance. This is on the players and has been through multiple coaches now.

Biggest problem for me is that the young core of this team (outside of tkachuk) have just not managed to turn into *veteran* top line players. And by that, I mean the way that good players build on their years of experience and become smart and difficult to play against. Compare Monahan to Couturier or Barkov... 1 of those 3 has simply not developed the intelligence and savvy that 7 years in the league should bring.

The book seems to be out on Johnny: keep him to the perimeter and he'll wear himself out or commit to a low percentage shot from the goal line. He's not interested in working to get into the middle, and despite the years he and Mony have not figured out how to maintain possession in the zone (see kopitar / carter, perry / getzlaf, etc...).

I appreciate Gio as an on-ice player but as the undisputed top veteran on the team, the rest of the players don't play like a team that finds strength through the play of their captain.

Most of the second wave that was supposed to buttress mony and johnny has largely not panned out (Bennett, Jankowski) or isn't looking all that great (Dube, Kylington). This leaves Tkachuk as the stand-out with Andersson and Mangiapane looking solid but not outstanding.

Hard to see what Tre can do here. If I was another GM in this league, I'd be very leery of paying up to get my hands on a Monahan or a Gaudreau...

The reason you talk about Ward is because if two main things you want coaches to do. Planning and motivating.

Johnny has skills. If “the book is out on him”, why isn’t the book “out” on guys like Patrick Kane and Mitch Marner? Is Johnny just too stupid to think of things on his own? Who watches video and gives the players advice about how to adjust their game? Who is directing Johnny’s linemates on where to go?

I can’t believe people have the coach a pass in the way you do. Paraphrasing, “The coach didn’t plan to have the team let in two quick goals”. Well, who teaches the team how to manage an aggressive forecheck? Under pressure, you sink to the level of your preparation.

Hartley with a garbage roster had the team well conditioned, and played with an incredibly quick transition. The D had the green light to join the rush creating a ton of outnumbered situations and goals for. They were relentless and rallied around an underdog identity.

Ward has the D wide and stationary a lot of the time. And no apparent identity to rally around.

When the team was outscoring their awful goaltending problems last year, they were moving the puck very quickly. Go back and watch some of the highlights from Gaudreau Monahan and Lindholm. Now the guys are sitting with the puck on their sticks for a couple of seconds and looking for safe plays, making it easier to defend. It’s like Gulutzan redux.

Hiring many crappy coaches in succession doesn’t all of a sudden make the coaches good and the players bad.

You have seen what the players are capable of, and the coaches are not getting it out of them. They need to identify how to emulate the way they play when they have a sense of urgency, more often. It’s with quick puck movement.

You know what we learned with the “my coach too” movement? A lot of coaches aren’t necessarily that smart.

No way you can just give the coach a pass when you can point out systemic issues and every player is underachieving, individually and collectively

I suspect he is doing what they used to do in Detroit. Tell guys he would rather see 60 points and a 200 foot game rather than 80 points. Because that’s how you win. And I suspect the players have adjusted their games to try and minimize risk and it has killed the parts that should work

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by blender

When you compare Monahan to Couturier and Barkov I can't help but think that neither of them has won anything either. Good players, yes, but both on middling teams that are in the playoff picture but not contenders. What's the difference?

Not saying I'd rather have Monahan, but your argument is that those guys have somehow learned to be better pros, but where is the evidence?

Are you even watching these players?

That’s your evidence.


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[Strange Brew]

DM agree with your assessment of coaching.

To me it’s one of 3 things:

Ownership won’t let Treliving hire a new coach yet after having to cut a big cheque to Peters
He can’t get the coach he wants right now
He’s not that great a GM.

Actually it could be more than one of those things.

[blender]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Are you even watching these players?

That’s your evidence.


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Sure I have and Monahan is the 3rd best player of the 3, but doesn't change the fact that those guys aren't helping their teams any more than Monahan is. For example, Philly can't win on the road, and Florida is below average defensively. If we were fans of either of those teams we would be asking why these two-way players can't help solve these team problems just like we are on Monahan for not having enough game to elevate the team above where they are at.

[FBI]

Even though I dreaded coming into this thread, I'm glad I came for "Crysaitl" lol

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I feel like hoping for Gaudreau and Monahan to step up as major game breaking players is over. They are consistently disappearing from the most intense games.

Monahan was clutch two games ago against StL. How short are some people’s memories?

Gaudreau has been godawful most of the year now. I think he’s moved in the off-season. He’s been dragging Monahan down all year with his scared, careless, soft play.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by blender

Sure I have and Monahan is the 3rd best player of the 3, but doesn't change the fact that those guys aren't helping their teams any more than Monahan is. For example, Philly can't win on the road, and Florida is below average defensively. If we were fans of either of those teams we would be asking why these two-way players can't help solve these team problems just like we are on Monahan for not having enough game to elevate the team above where they are at.

One player can seldom make up for team’s deficiencies. You can’t judge a player’s ability simply based on his team’s results.

Barkov is a gifted 200 foot player.


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[Erick Estrada]

Lucic getting criticized on 960 this morning. Glad to see he's getting some negative attention for his Houdini act.

[bubbsy]

I usually like sarich on the fan, but hated his bit regarding lucic.

Basically saying you can't blame lucic for not making an impact, there's no one for him to fight on the oilers, and that post whistle scrum involvement isn't a big deal.

I completely disagree. Lucic yanking a guy from a scrum by the collar definitely has an impact.

[bubbsy]

...

[Toonage]

Honestly it would be addition by subtraction if they bought him out this summer.

Its the same money for him to sit on the bench as it is to let someone else play in his place.

Consider it money spent to ensure you can actually protect someone of use in the expansion draft and not have to make a side deal where you lose an additional asset.

Consider it another lesson learned on paying big money to UFAs (yeah it was Neal initially but this is the end result).

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I usually like sarich on the fan, but hated his bit regarding lucic.

Basically saying you can't blame lucic for not making an impact, there's no one for him to fight on the oilers, and that post whistle scrum involvement isn't a big deal.

I completely disagree. Lucic yanking a guy from a scrum by the collar definitely has an impact.

He also said the team needed a banger that would go out and make life uncomfortable on opposing players and Lucic is no longer that guy which I can't really disagree with. I don't think even Treliving realized he was getting a gentle giant with Lucic or he may have told Peters to suck it up and end the trade discussions with the Oilers.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The reason you talk about Ward is because if two main things you want coaches to do. Planning and motivating.

Johnny has skills. If “the book is out on him”, why isn’t the book “out” on guys like Patrick Kane and Mitch Marner? Is Johnny just too stupid to think of things on his own? Who watches video and gives the players advice about how to adjust their game? Who is directing Johnny’s linemates on where to go?

I can’t believe people have the coach a pass in the way you do. Paraphrasing, “The coach didn’t plan to have the team let in two quick goals”. Well, who teaches the team how to manage an aggressive forecheck? Under pressure, you sink to the level of your preparation.

Hartley with a garbage roster had the team well conditioned, and played with an incredibly quick transition. The D had the green light to join the rush creating a ton of outnumbered situations and goals for. They were relentless and rallied around an underdog identity.

Ward has the D wide and stationary a lot of the time. And no apparent identity to rally around.

When the team was outscoring their awful goaltending problems last year, they were moving the puck very quickly. Go back and watch some of the highlights from Gaudreau Monahan and Lindholm. Now the guys are sitting with the puck on their sticks for a couple of seconds and looking for safe plays, making it easier to defend. It’s like Gulutzan redux.

Hiring many crappy coaches in succession doesn’t all of a sudden make the coaches good and the players bad.

You have seen what the players are capable of, and the coaches are not getting it out of them. They need to identify how to emulate the way they play when they have a sense of urgency, more often. It’s with quick puck movement.

You know what we learned with the “my coach too” movement? A lot of coaches aren’t necessarily that smart.

No way you can just give the coach a pass when you can point out systemic issues and every player is underachieving, individually and collectively

I suspect he is doing what they used to do in Detroit. Tell guys he would rather see 60 points and a 200 foot game rather than 80 points. Because that’s how you win. And I suspect the players have adjusted their games to try and minimize risk and it has killed the parts that should work

Hartley had the team motivated until he didn't, the year he got fired. GG ahd them motivated his first year, then he didn't and he got fired. Peters had the team motivated last year and this year he didn't before he got fired for other reasons. They came out hard for Ward right after the switch and then they didn't. Recently they got up for big games against Toronto, St. Louis and Edmonton and sucked against teams like Ottawa. Was Ward a good motivator for some games but not others? At some point it's not the coach.

I've got no issue with replacing Ward with a known successful coach, but I think this team's motivational problems are not on him.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He also said the team needed a banger that would go out and make life uncomfortable on opposing players and Lucic is no longer that guy which I can't really disagree with. I don't think even Treliving realized he was getting a gentle giant with Lucic or he may have told Peters to suck it up and end the trade discussions with the Oilers.

I think Lucic has been pretty heavy on the opposition except for Edfmonton, where it just wasn't there.

The trade, however, was all about Neal and not much about Lucic. The problem was there were no other potential takers for Neal.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I need to look back, but I think Lucic learned from Iggy a bit. Iggy had a couple of fights early to endear himself to the Boston fans, then settled down a bit. Lucic had 2 in his first 3 games here. Now mind you, Iggy was still game after that to chip in now and again.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I need to look back, but I think Lucic learned from Iggy a bit. Iggy had a couple of fights early to endear himself to the Boston fans, then settled down a bit. Lucic had 2 in his first 3 games here. Now mind you, Iggy was still game after that to chip in now and again.

Yeah but the Bruins brought Iggy in to score goals and that's always been his primary focus as the fisticuffs were usually strategically timed. Lucic has no real reason to be pacing himself as he was brought in to be a physical presence and ensure teams aren't taking liberties with skilled players.

[djsFlames]

Need an identity, need a system and need to activate our D like we used to.

It all seems so ambiguous as to what the team is trying to accomplish structurally this season.

Also make a phucking trade Bradley.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Need an identity, need a system and need to activate our D like we used to.

It all seems so ambiguous as to what the team is trying to accomplish structurally this season.

Also make a phucking trade Bradley.

To me the team feels completely out of sync. We don't play to our strengths, and as a result we get the current inconsistent version of the team. Quick transition, mobile D, can we do that again? Maybe some form of neutral zone pressure?

It honestly feels like they gave the keys to their analytics person to determine lines, ice time and deployment scenarios.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Hartley had the team motivated until he didn't, the year he got fired. GG ahd them motivated his first year, then he didn't and he got fired. Peters had the team motivated last year and this year he didn't before he got fired for other reasons. They came out hard for Ward right after the switch and then they didn't. Recently they got up for big games against Toronto, St. Louis and Edmonton and sucked against teams like Ottawa. Was Ward a good motivator for some games but not others? At some point it's not the coach.

I've got no issue with replacing Ward with a known successful coach, but I think this team's motivational problems are not on him.

There are so many ways to answer this, so I’ll pick a few points
- the difference between successful pros and people with potential is the ability to perform consistently, day in and day out. Yes it is the job of the coach to find ways to motivate when things get stale, settled, etc.
- I noticed you did not touch on tactics. As teams establish their identity, they are better understood by their opponents. Scouted, countered, defended more successfully. Coaches need to adapt
- it is demotivating to implement a game plan and have it be unsuccessful, for whatever reason (ex. a garbage roster trying to out score leaky Jonas Hiller, or a stupid slow predictable Gulutzan offence built from breakouts coddling Mike Smith’s need to handle the puck)
- this is compounded when things are otherwise not fun (Hartley’s hardass approach, risk averse d-first Brent Sutter style play, whatever bug is up Johnny’s ass)

When the message is to sacrifice things that work, for the greater benefit of the team, and the results are way worse than they were prior to the coaching, yeah I think it’s on the coach to figure out how to add motivation.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I need to look back, but I think Lucic learned from Iggy a bit. Iggy had a couple of fights early to endear himself to the Boston fans, then settled down a bit. Lucic had 2 in his first 3 games here. Now mind you, Iggy was still game after that to chip in now and again.

As stated above, Iggy and Lucic situations can't be compared in my opinion. Iginla was a top 6 scoring forward, who was brought in for the numerous ways he could impact a game.

Lucic lost relevance and a spot on a team where he proved to no longer be a scorer, and seemingly stopped being physically involved (if you ask Edmonton fans). He gets traded here, and after a few incidents early on, he's just gone back to what he was in Edmonton (a no impact player on the score sheet, and as a presence on the ice).

I realize he can't just go around punching people, and I also get the argument that there may not be a person of the same weight class on the opposition. However, that shouldn't stop him from being snarly, and involved in all post whistle scrums. If his line mates are getting face washed, he should definitely be getting in there.

If he hasn't realized that his new team has brought him in to play that role, well, things are going to end about as bad as they did in Edmonton for him.

A guy like Rinaldo can easily play that role, is faster so can be a forechecking/energy guy, and comes in around league minimum.

I hope Lucic gets healthy scratched soon. I'd much rather have Neal, more importantly his contracts, on the team, and I hated Neal from almost day 1.

Really really dumb move by Treliving