City of Victoria to remove statue of John A. Macdonald from the steps of City Hall

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is akin to saying "this doesn't bother me, so I fail to see why it might bother someone else."

It may be trivial—I honestly do not know, without having a good understanding behind the offended groups, and how big of an issue they perceive this to be. However, it is wrong to flippantly dismiss these responses that we do not share or find puzzling prima facie as "faux outrage." The right thing to do is to learn about what lies behind the response. In this particular instance, learning from station that this action is most likely part of the 2015 Truth and Reconciliation Commission suggests that it is a small part of a larger movement undertaken by the Victoria government to satisfy reparations.

Valid points. I think my original post came across backward of how you read it. My take is, if someone is passionate enough about the pain it is causing them to make a major public fight of it, then replace it with something else. Your points all remain valid, but I would suggest the faux outrage is with the "keep the statue crowd". I would guess only a small fraction here knew before today that this statue even existed.

[zamler]

We need to get to fallacy fallacy fallacy then it will all make sense.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Valid points. I think my original post came across backward of how you read it. My take is, if someone is passionate enough about the pain it is causing them to make a major public fight of it, then replace it with something else. Your points all remain valid, but I would suggest the faux outrage is with the "keep the statue crowd". I would guess only a small fraction here knew before today that this statue even existed.

The issue isn’t just about that single statue in Victoria. If they remove it there, they will remove it elsewhere.

I’m somewhat indifferent, but I too wonder where it ends.

[RichKlit]

How many people constitute outrage? Like mentioned earlier, who and how many are actually outraged? There needs some kind of standard because if all it takes is me and a couple buddies to convince CTV, CBC that there’s outrage over my paticular outrage of the moment then we are in trouble and everyone should duck and cover. There is no one on this board not one who hasn’t done something that someone can find offensive.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Guess it's really no different than in the States of them removing the statues of those racist confederates. If people have no issues with them removing those, then it'd be kind of hypocritical to have any issues with this.

That's a good point.

A small difference in Canada I would argue is that there is no hero/cult worship of John A MacDonald like there is in the Confederate states about their leaders during the Civil War.

John A McDonald isn't a symbol for racist idiots in Canada like the Confederate leaders are for those in the USA.

It should be noted that the last residential school in Canada closed in 1996, so if we go down this route of taking down statues of politicians it should be noted that every Prime Minister up until 1996 was at least complacent on the issue of Residential Schools.

[Hockey Fan #751]

Does this mean anyone against the statue is a hypocrite if they buy something with $10 cash (that is, until the new $10 bill comes out at the end of this year).

While we're at it, what's the deal with all those naked people standing outside the Calgary Board of Education?

[station]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Why don't you try taking the suggestion seriously? If we're going to try and erase people from history because we don't like how 19th century viewpoints look from a 21st century lens, then lets consider if the famous five, as the noted example, might actually warrant the same treatment.

It's not a question of simply saying "hurr durr hypocrites", but of asking how far this goes, and which groups are subject to erasure and which are not.

Replacing a statue with a plaque is erasing history to you? Why is a statue so important?

There is a time and place for everything. Not all progress can and will happen at once. Right now there is an appetite for reconciliation with indigenous peoples. Discussing the famous five honestly is potentially worthwhile but that is not what is being discussed. Should reconciliation wait until we are ready to deal with all wrongs of history all at once?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

That's a good point.

A small difference in Canada I would argue is that there is no hero/cult worship of John A MacDonald like there is in the Confederate states about their leaders during the Civil War.

John A McDonald isn't a symbol for racist idiots in Canada like the Confederate leaders are for those in the USA.

It should be noted that the last residential school in Canada closed in 1996, so if we go down this route of taking down statues of politicians it should be noted that every Prime Minister up until 1996 was at least complacent on the issue of Residential Schools.

The other thing that is different is that the reason this MacDonald statue was put up wasn’t to celebrate fighting for residential schools. The civil war statues were put up as monuments to celebrate the Civil War.

Getting rid of this statue is akin to taking down a statue of George Washington for owning slaves.

Canadians lack knowledge of this part of history so adding a plaque outlining the successes and faults of MacDonald makes sense.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

Do you feel that the lens of today's morals and values should be equally applied?

Because if so, we can start with statues of Emily Murphy and Tommy Douglas.

If people are hurt enough by their past actions, sure why not? Just because a person was capable of doing some or a lot of good, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be held accountable for their transgressions.

I think Bill Cosby’s chocolate cake for breakfast was a fantastic standup bit, but that doesn’t mean I think it earns him a free pass when it comes to the crimes he committed. His contributions to comedy can still be acknowledged without portraying him as a person who people should look up to.

[GGG]

Nm

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

The issue isn’t just about that single statue in Victoria. If they remove it there, they will remove it elsewhere.

I’m somewhat indifferent, but I too wonder where it ends.

I feel about the same, but I don’t bother wondering where it ends, because really, who of us debating this actually cares?

Imagine for a second where this could end up making only logical conclusions to get there, and ask yourself: “If that conclusion were reached, how would it impact my life?”

My guess is, it wouldn’t. Not any logical end of this slippery slope I can think of, at least.

Originally Posted by RichKlit

There is no one on this board not one who hasn’t done something that someone can find offensive.

What’s your point?

[FireGilbert]

These people do realise McDonald is on the $10 bill right? I can picture someone at 7-11 going "Can I get two 5s change instead of a 10? Laurier wasn't quite as racist as McDonald."

In this case I support the removal. The Natives have endured a history of discrimination and are still on the fringes of society. If something as incredibly simple as removing a statue makes a portion of this population feel more included and more Canadian then it is an easy decision.

[FlamesAddiction]

This has nothing to do with the Confederate statue situation. It's been going on in Canada for a long time and might be getting more attention now, but it isn't a brand new issue.

I remember when I was a teen living up north, I knew some aboriginal people who refused to even use $10 bills and would refuse them as change at stores. In Ottawa and Kingston, the Sir John A. pubs have also seen protests in the past.

I am all for taking that statue down. To people affected by his racist policies, it does nothing but taunt them.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

It's just a big smoke screen. Someone should have a look in the harbor and see what kind of horrible disaster they're dumping out along with their sewage.

Don't capsize while kayaking in the harbour.

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

This has nothing to do with the Confederate statue situation. It's been going on in Canada for a long time and might be getting more attention now, but it isn't a brand new issue.

I remember when I was a teen living up north, I knew some aboriginal people who refused to even use $10 bills and would refuse them as change at stores. In Ottawa and Kingston, the Sir John A. pubs have also seen protests in the past.

I am all for taking that statue down. To people affected by his racist policies, it does nothing but taunt them.

I was completely joking but I guess this is actually a thing. Wasn't Laurier a bit racist towards Natives too? They should be asking for 5x toonies change. QEII and polar bears may both be white but they have not oppressed anyone.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Is that what is happening here? I don't think so. In fact, Victoria's mayor has stated that there are efforts underway to "recontextualize MacDonald."

Oh, that's much better then. We'll just be erasing his positive contributions to the country in order to focus on our modern interpretation of the bad.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Oh, that's much better then. We'll just be erasing his positive contributions to the country in order to focus on our modern interpretation of the bad.

That’s still not what’s happening...

[RichKlit]

Why not quote my whole post? Kinda ties the comment together.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by station

Replacing a statue with a plaque is erasing history to you? Why is a statue so important?

There is a time and place for everything. Not all progress can and will happen at once. Right now there is an appetite for reconciliation with indigenous peoples. Discussing the famous five honestly is potentially worthwhile but that is not what is being discussed. Should reconciliation wait until we are ready to deal with all wrongs of history all at once?

That's the thing. Whitewashing history is not progress. Also, you may want to make this only about removing a statue, but it's obviously a larger issue as this isn't the first time we've been through this. Langevin Bridge ring a bell? It's clear that this campaign to "recontextualize history" is going to be pushed until people push back. So, again: how far do we allow this alleged "reconciliation" to go and how many historical figures are erased before the inevitable push back blows up in everyone's faces?

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

I was completely joking but I guess this is actually a thing. Wasn't Laurier a bit racist towards Natives too? They should be asking for 5x toonies change. QEII and polar bears may both be white but they have not oppressed anyone.

Well seeing as how the queen is a figurehead for our government, and she has never renounced that title, she hasn't vocally opposed anything in Canadian history. Sure dont see much outrage about the receiving money with her face on it....