Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[troutman]

From 1998-99 to 2007-08, the Flames outspent the Senators only twice (and not by much).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lls_in_the_NHL

This season, Calgary's cap hit is $72.7 M and Ottawa's is $70.7 M.

https://www.nhlnumbers.com/team-salaries

Ottawa has won far more playoff series than the Flames since the lockout, and are much further along in getting a new arena.

Construction on downtown Senators arena could start in 2019

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ticle37738043/

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I don't like KK either but I don't know what you expect him to do with the budget. He's not the GM.

He's the guy at the top... ultimately he's the one that hires the hockey ops people. I expect him to hire people that will use those dollars to effectively build a successful hockey team and he has been an abject failure at meeting that expectation.

I'm not saying the owners don't want the team to win... of course they do if for no other reason then playoffs = more revenue, and success increases demand and increased demand means increased ticket prices which = more revenue. And naturally they would want the vanity prize of having their name etched on the best trophy in the world. But the money spent has been squandered... wasted by the teams day-to-day management. That management has to change and that change starts with Ken King. Ken King is part of the problem not part of the solution.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by Parallex

He's the guy at the top... ultimately he's the one that hires the hockey ops people. I expect him to hire people that will use those dollars to effectively build a successful hockey team and he has been an abject failure at meeting that expectation.

I'm not saying the owners don't want the team to win... of course they do if for no other reason then playoffs = more revenue, and success increases demand and increased demand means increased ticket prices which = more revenue. And naturally they would want the vanity prize of having their name etched on the best trophy in the world. But the money spent has been squandered... wasted by the teams day-to-day management. That management has to change and that change starts with Ken King. Ken King is part of the problem not part of the solution.

I thought King was out of hockey ops and just screwing up the arena file full time.

Isn't Burke now the main man, hockey ops wise?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

I thought King was out of hockey ops and just screwing up the arena file full time.

Isn't Burke now the main man, hockey ops wise?

Who do you think hired Burke?

And yes... one of the reasons floated for hiring a PoHO was so the King could devote more time to the arena project (Great use of time and resources on that one guys!).

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Parallex

He's the guy at the top... ultimately he's the one that hires the hockey ops people. I expect him to hire people that will use those dollars to effectively build a successful hockey team and he has been an abject failure at meeting that expectation.

KK was responsible for Hockey Operations from 2001 to 2013. In that time, 3 playoff series wins, 9 coaches, 4 GMs, 5 AHL affiliates. People have been fired for less.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Who do you think hired Burke?

And yes... one of the reasons floated for hiring a PoHO was so the King could devote more time to the arena project (Great use of time and resources on that one guys!).

Well yeah, I just thought that King basically hired someone to take over his role in hockey ops entirely. So for Burke to go, that would be an owners decision.

I might be mistaken though.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by troutman

KK was responsible for Hockey Operations from 2001 to 2013. In that time, 3 playoff series wins, 9 coaches, 4 GMs, 5 AHL affiliates. People have been fired for less.

I have a feeling there is an engrained culture of nepotism in the Flames office; even if it has waned a bit in recent years. KK is a good example of this, and you see this with connections like Gelinas/Conroy and Maloney/Treliving, regardless of whether they're doing a good job or not.

I know the Oilers have been doing this for years (80's dynasty clique), but is it unreasonable to think it's happening in the Flames organization too? Probably not.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's fine to be upset at the product on the ice and fate of the 2017/18 Calgary Flames but to place the blame of this season on ownership is laughable and embarrassing.

Lots of hands-on owners spend to the cap and want to win. That isn't the issue. The issue is people who are not hockey experts - Edwards and King - meddling in hockey operations.

Brad Treliving is a smart guy. I'd have far more confidence in the future of this team if I believed he has the freedom to try to put together a winning team without input and pressure from above. But I don't believe that is the case. There has been too much insider talk of 'too many cooks in the kitchen' in the Flames organisation. The meddling and impatience has been going on for decades.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Get it together people as maybe cheering for professional sports isn't for you a losing season causes you to throw everyone involved under the bus and compare the organization to some of the worst in North American professional sports.

A losing season? I've been following this team since '84. I'm not talking about losing season. I'm talking about almost 30 years of disappointing seasons.

It's difficult to recognize that the team you're a fan of is run by a poor organization. But it's fandom that blinds us to the enduring and chronic poor results of this franchise, and looks at a succession of players, coaches, and GMs to hang the horns on, rather than looking higher.

Originally Posted by Rubicant

Agreed. I don't know how anyone can look at the player salaries this team has had since the salary cap came in and come to the conclusion that the owners don't want to win.

Of course they want to win. But having impatient, meddling owners isn't any better than having ownership who try to cheap out. The results are the same.

Originally Posted by Rubicant

Another, more reasonable argument is whether they have been the impetus behind the flawed way this team has tried to win (refusing to rebuild during the Iginla years, looking to have tried to take some short cuts in this current rebuild, etc). It looks like a lack of patience to build a winner - and when you've been very successful in a very short time in your primary business like Edwards has, I can see why they have tried to make it happen here, it just hasn't helped.

Yes, I can see why guys who are hugely successful, high-status alphas in business might think they're smart enough to be successful at other endeavours. But when it comes to professional sports, they're almost always wrong.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Lots of hands-on owners spend to the cap and want to win. That isn't the issue. The issue is people who are not hockey experts - Edwards and King - meddling in hockey operations.

Honestly, I don't know that Edwards does "meddle" in hockey operations. Frankly I don't care if he does (or if Ken King does for that matter) meddle.

What I do care about are outcomes... and the fact of the matter is that the teams performance on the ice under the Presidency of Ken King has overall been pretty abysmal and Murray Edwards ought to have King held to account for that. It doesn't matter if King does "meddle" in hockey operations because he's the guy that hires all the hockey operations people. The failings of Hockey Ops are on him as much (if not more) then then anyone else in the org regardless of how hands on he is.

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Honestly, I don't know that Edwards does "meddle" in hockey operations. Frankly I don't care if he does (or if Ken King does for that matter) meddle.

What I do care about are outcomes... and the fact of the matter is that the teams performance on the ice under the Presidency of Ken King has overall been pretty abysmal and Murray Edwards ought to have King held to account for that. It doesn't matter if King does "meddle" in hockey operations because he's the guy that hires all the hockey operations people. The failings of Hockey Ops are on him as much (if not more) then then anyone else in the org regardless of how hands on he is.

I agree. The buck stops with the guy at the top. That isn't the coach, or the GM, or the VP of Hockey Ops, or the President of the team. It is the owner. It is also not an evaluation you base on one season, but on several. Twenty five years of mostly failure tells me that the ownership is making bad decisions on who they employ.

I doubt they change more than the coach. I hope it isn't another unproven guy, but history suggests that's what this franchise does.

[Badgers Nose]

This has probably already been posted, but this is what Edwards is trying to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIs9iLnKm30

Like the Glazers, get a free stadium by fooling people via math (its only going to cost me $150/year!). Then leverage the value of the Flames to buy something you want more.

This is good too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QEY95ohtwE

[sureLoss]

Metro reporting Councillors are trying to restart arena negotiations:

https://www.thestar.com/calgary/2018...ry-flames.html

City councillors are hatching plans to form a new negotiating team in a bid to jump-start stalled arena talks with the owners of the Calgary Flames, StarMetro has learned.

At least 10 councillors are directly involved in or aware of recent meetings in which elected officials have discussed drafting a notice of motion calling on council to strike a new committee — one that may exclude past brokers from both parties.

“Initially, it should be new blood that’s on it to give it a different perspective than we’re getting now,” said Coun. Ray Jones.

“The longer we leave it, the more it just kind of goes away,” he explained. “Everybody right now is gung ho to get going on it, and I think we should take advantage of that.”

Six months later, councillors are itching to return to the table but have been reluctant to reveal their recent meetings to restart talks.

“Stay tuned,” Coun. Sutherland hinted last week when asked by reporters for an update on the arena.

In an interview, Coun. Chu downplayed the significance of discussions to strike a new committee. “At this time, it’s just chat,” Chu said.

Lori Williams, associate professor of policy studies at Mount Royal University, said councillors might be wary of voter backlash given many Calgarians supported Nenshi’s position.

“I suppose it does make sense to try to get new people to the negotiating table so that any animosities that may be lingering from the breakdown of negotiations in the past would not be part of this,” Williams said.

“That said, there may be those who say, ‘Look, the mayor took a very hard line saying that he wants to stand up for taxpayers,’ and some of those taxpayers like the idea of a tough negotiator and want the mayor involved in the process.”

Efforts to rejuvenate negotiations with the Flames could be seen as yet another move to curtail Nenshi’s control of high-profile projects, such as the city’s gaffe-prone bid to host the 2026 Olympic Games.

[Erick Estrada]

Interesting. I look forward to see how discussions can progress with less involvement from Nenshi.

[Robbob]

I bet there is an agreement in principle within 6 months once they start considering they were 95% there last time before it fell off the rails and hen proceeded to crash into the TNT factory.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I bet there is an agreement in principle within 6 months once they start considering they were 95% there last time before it fell off the rails and hen proceeded to crash into the TNT factory.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU

[Locke]

This was really the only smart thing to do. I know I've mentioned it a few times.

Get the past players out of the game.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Locke

This was really the only smart thing to do. I know I've mentioned it a few times.

Get the past players out of the game.

Yep. It's tough to have meaningful discussions or negotiations when things get personal and it clearly became a personal thing for Nenshi and some on the Flames side of negotiations.

[Table 5]

Yes, it's all Nenshi's fault.

Some new people at the table is probably good thing, but only if there's some new representation, and adjusted perspective, from the owners side as well.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Yes, it's all Nenshi's fault.

Some new people at the table is probably good thing, but only if there's some new representation, and adjusted perspective, from the owners side as well.

Wrong thread? I hadn't seen the bolded stated here until your post.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yep. It's tough to have meaningful discussions or negotiations when things get personal and it clearly became a personal thing for Nenshi and some on the Flames side of negotiations.

Okay, you're blaming Nenshi a lot, and I'm sure hes not entirely blameless in this fiasco but theres plenty of blame to go around.

If anything Nenshi is just making sure we're not getting taken to the cleaners a la Edmonton.