[Trade] Sens trade Lazar and Kostka to the Flames for a 2nd + Jokipakka

[Gaudfather]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

How do you know how many teams passed, BTW? Every team has different needs, some who would have not passed maybe had a worse second round pick, or they liked Kevin more than the other teams' offers. Maybe there was even a bidding war between teams.

You have no idea, or at least you haven't provided any reason to think that Lazar was offered to 30 teams and only Calgary was interested.

Also between Cameron, Pascal and Treliving - the Flames brain trust had a book on this player that was likely much deeper than the management of other NHL organizations. They weren't just relying on a local scout.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

How do you know how many teams passed, BTW? Every team has different needs, some who would have not passed maybe had a worse second round pick, or they liked Kevin more than the other teams' offers. Maybe there was even a bidding war between teams.

You have no idea, or at least you haven't provided any reason to think that Lazar was offered to 30 teams and only Calgary was interested.

Lazar had been available for weeks. It was public information that he had asked for a trade and was being shopped by the sens. Days before the deadline the senators leaked that they had a second round pick on the table but were looking for a first.

That sounded so implausible, in part because the perceived value for Lazar was lower than a second, that posters such as myself and sureloss questioned whether the sens were attempting to manipulate the market by saying they had a second when they didn't.

As it turns out it was likely the flames who were involved early with an offer for a second round pick, and after no one else stepped up, the sens made the deal with Calgary after bishop ended up going to LA.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Lazar had been available for weeks. It was public information that he had asked for a trade and was being shopped by the sens. Days before the deadline the senators leaked that they had a second round pick on the table but were looking for a first.

That sounded so implausible, in part because the perceived value for Lazar was lower than a second, that posters such as myself and sureloss questioned whether the sens were attempting to manipulate the market by saying they had a second when they didn't.

As it turns out it was likely the flames who were involved early with an offer for a second round pick, and after no one else stepped up, the sens made the deal with Calgary after bishop ended up going to LA.

The crux of the arguments lies in that every other team took a pass on this acquisition. That is simply false.

Lazar is a reclamation. Most moves were of the type to buy an established win to help a team through the stretch drive and into the playoffs. Lazar didn't fit that.

It is also difficult for teams that are selling to buy on Lazar. They are trying to acquire as many picks as possible, and may not be in a position to acquire what is looked at as a reclamation project. Picks are currency, but they are never more valuable than right before or at the draft.

There were a lot of guys that weren't moved at the deadline. I guess teams all passed on those as well? Some teams are in different situations, have accumulated a different amount of assets, and have different needs and have varying amounts of cap room available. A blanket statement saying that every other team passed is just simply wrong.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Trying to understand exactly why people are upset, still, about the trade...?

so, if we traded a 3rd round pick, instead of the 2nd, for Lazar would that have made it a good trade?

its been said many times already that this is a poor draft year... even burke said a 2nd round pick this year is more like a 3rd round pick in most years...

looking forward to play to see what all the fuss is about

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

So you'd pick a player guaranteed to be a Lazar? On the cusp of a bust with 1 assist in his last 33 games?

You might, and the Flames did, but 29 other teams passed.

lol what a silly comment

Here's a thought: Every single team passed on every 2nd round pick, ever. And some teams passed twice.

I think lots of people just like to post contrarian garbage without even thinking about what they wrote.

[Flash Walken]

It's not like a buffet where Lazar is next to the pork chops and everyone passes him over in favour of the chow me in, but it IS an indication that no other team placed as high a value on Lazar as the flames did, because it was public knowledge what the going rate was and no other team appears to have beaten that offer.

Maybe that is because the flames knew something no one else did, or maybe it's because other franchises see what is there and the flames don't. That all remains to be seen. The circumstances around the trade are pretty clear though, and the trade will eventually be seen as one or the other in a couple of years when we see what Lazar has to offer.

29 other teams could've had kipper for a 2nd rounder, but Darryl had the inside track and so kipper ended up a flame. We don't need to invent scenarios about other teams pining for him but just weren't able to make it work to acquire him, or that the trade stands on its own merit just as this one will.

This is one of the more transparent trades we as fans get to see. Player asks for trade, team publicly considers moving him, team updates league and media as to current value of offer on the table, player eventually gets moved for aforementioned return.

If someone else valued him as being worth a 1st he would've been moved for a first unless we think the sens chose a lesser deal from the flames for some reason.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Lazar had been available for weeks. It was public information that he had asked for a trade and was being shopped by the sens. Days before the deadline the senators leaked that they had a second round pick on the table but were looking for a first.

That sounded so implausible, in part because the perceived value for Lazar was lower than a second, that posters such as myself and sureloss questioned whether the sens were attempting to manipulate the market by saying they had a second when they didn't.

As it turns out it was likely the flames who were involved early with an offer for a second round pick, and after no one else stepped up, the sens made the deal with Calgary after bishop ended up going to LA.

You're making assumptions to fit your narrative.

He was available for weeks because they were trying to trade him. Of course they were going to wait to try and get the best return possible. They tried to get a 1st but couldn't.

Those are the only facts.

[GoJetsGo]

Typical Flash is moving the goal posts to continue complaining about this trade.

We have no idea how many teams were or weren't involved due to contracts, roster space, organizational depth / need.

Just an absolute reach to suggest no one else was in on Lazar when we have no idea.

[Flash Walken]

Yeah, exactly, thanks.

Lazar went to the highest bidder, for a 2nd round pick, which no other team appeared to be offering. Ergo, the flames paid a higher route than anyone else was willing to, which ostensibly means 29 other teams passed on that deal for one reason or another.

[Enoch Root]

I can speculate too...

A team in the Sens division, who were really familiar with Lazar, really wanted him and offered a 1st. The Sens tried to get a similar return from a western team but couldn't In the end they took a 2nd from Calgary, rather than trade him to a divisional rival.

Speculating is fun!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Yeah, exactly, thanks.

Lazar went to the highest bidder, for a 2nd round pick, which no other team appeared to be offering. Ergo, the flames paid a higher route than anyone else was willing to, which ostensibly means 29 other teams passed on that deal for one reason or another.

Again, you have absolutely no idea whether that is true. Yet you keep on posting it.

[PsYcNeT]

I'm honestly unsure what you guys are getting all these bees in your bonnets over. Flash isn't over the moon, but neither is he glaringly negative.

Taking a "wait and see" approach to a gamble isn't exactly ludicrous.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Speculating is fun!

Here's another speculation:

The Senators actually placed some value on Jokipakka. They didn't claim him on waivers because they wanted to ship out a contract in return; so they made the trade and threw in Kostka. At least one other team offered a 2nd-round pick, but Calgary was the only one that would also give them an NHL defenceman for the stretch run.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I'm honestly unsure what you guys are getting all these bees in your bonnets over. Flash isn't over the moon, but neither is he glaringly negative.

Taking a "wait and see" approach to a gamble isn't exactly ludicrous.

No, of course it isn't.

But making up garbage to try and create a narrative and validate a position is just poor. And he deserves to get called out for it.

If he said "I am not a fan of Lazar and think it's a bad trade" that would have been a valid opinion. But he couldn't leave it at that.

[Flash Walken]

What am I making up? My argument is based on what the senators organization publicly revealed, they kept us aware of the situation the whole time and the flames eventually got the player for the offer they said they had on the table.

What a joke.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I'm honestly unsure what you guys are getting all these bees in your bonnets over. Flash isn't over the moon, but neither is he glaringly negative.

Taking a "wait and see" approach to a gamble isn't exactly ludicrous.

People think I'm negative but IMO Flash puts me in a better light ha ha ha. That said I respect everyone's right to an opinion and me being more of a glass half empty person I tend to agree with him at times. If you look at my posts prior to the trade regarding Lazar I've never been high on him and today I don't believe he will ever be a top 6 forward. That said I'm not high on this draft and to me a 2nd round pick is fine to roll on a player that has already at least played in the NHL and has leadership intangibles as this organization has three first round picks in the AHL in Piorier, Klimchuk, and Shinkaruk that look like they may never play in the NHL so they are getting a bit of a known commodity for a roll of the dice draft pick. Not sure if it works out but I like Lazar's chances of being a regular NHL player over a 2nd round pick in a bad draft.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What am I making up?

That you know what offers were on the table or who Ottawa was or wasn't willing to move him to.

You have no idea but (as usual) you're trying to put a negative spin on this so you're attempting to put forth your speculation as being factual to fit your narrative.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's not like a buffet where Lazar is next to the pork chops and everyone passes him over in favour of the chow me in, but it IS an indication that no other team placed as high a value on Lazar as the flames did, because it was public knowledge what the going rate was and no other team appears to have beaten that offer.

Maybe that is because the flames knew something no one else did, or maybe it's because other franchises see what is there and the flames don't. That all remains to be seen. The circumstances around the trade are pretty clear though, and the trade will eventually be seen as one or the other in a couple of years when we see what Lazar has to offer.

You can't ignore the expansion draft though.

the Flames are well known to be one of a handful of teams without protection problems. That was always going to be Treliving's play, I said it in my trade deadline prediction article; make a move to grab a forward from a team that could/would have protection issues.

making a play for Lazar doesn't mean nobody else would have liked to have him ... but the Flames were a very unique team in that they

a) are young and still adding to the core
b) don't need to add rentals since they're not in all in mode
c) aren't sellers looking to add picks and not move them
d) have execs and coaches with Lazar knowledge
e) have the protection list room to take the project on

if you run down that list you won't find many if any other teams

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You can't ignore the expansion draft though.

the Flames are well known to be one of a handful of teams without protection problems. That was always going to be Treliving's play, I said it in my trade deadline prediction article; make a move to grab a forward from a team that could/would have protection issues.

making a play for Lazar doesn't mean nobody else would have liked to have him ... but the Flames were a very unique team in that they

a) are young and still adding to the core
b) don't need to add rentals since they're not in all in mode
c) aren't sellers looking to add picks and not move them
d) have execs and coaches with Lazar knowledge
e) have the protection list room to take the project on

if you run down that list you won't find many if any other teams

Sure, not every team was in the position to acquire the player even if they had valued him to the same capacity as the Flames, however, it is not as though they did not have the opportunity to acquire the player by making organization/roster changes if Lazar for a 2nd was a perceived bargain. Just because the flames have the room to acquire Lazar doesn't mean they didn't have to make their own internal shuffles regarding expansion. Now it likely means exposing brouwer which was not a given say 2 weeks ago.

Further, there were teams in a position to acquire Lazar but chose not to, and that includes a team like the Canucks who made a separate deal with the sens during the window Lazar was available. Now, just because the Canucks don't grab a player doesn't mean he's no good, but it illustrates that the senators had options on the trade market. It may be in accurate to say 29 teams passed on Lazar and that isn't really the point I am trying to make. The point is that it was public information long enough that the senators were shopping him that if he was a very attractive asset teams could have positioned themselves to acquire him as the Flames did. If the team's in the running, say it is as few as 10 teams able to take on Lazar, ultimately the flames appear to have given the strongest offer for his services because they ended up with the player. In a year or two the flames will either look like they saw something others didn't or they saw something that wasn't there, or that they analysed his value perfectly to exchange the second rounder.

However it ends up the judgement of the trade will happen in the context of what did the rest of the league decide to do, in the same way we judge the draft.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Sure, not every team was in the position to acquire the player even if they had valued him to the same capacity as the Flames, however, it is not as though they did not have the opportunity to acquire the player by making organization/roster changes if Lazar for a 2nd was a perceived bargain. Just because the flames have the room to acquire Lazar doesn't mean they didn't have to make their own internal shuffles regarding expansion. Now it likely means exposing brouwer which was not a given say 2 weeks ago.

Further, there were teams in a position to acquire Lazar but chose not to, and that includes a team like the Canucks who made a separate deal with the sens during the window Lazar was available. Now, just because the Canucks don't grab a player doesn't mean he's no good, but it illustrates that the senators had options on the trade market. It may be in accurate to say 29 teams passed on Lazar and that isn't really the point I am trying to make. The point is that it was public information long enough that the senators were shopping him that if he was a very attractive asset teams could have positioned themselves to acquire him as the Flames did. If the team's in the running, say it is as few as 10 teams able to take on Lazar, ultimately the flames appear to have given the strongest offer for his services because they ended up with the player. In a year or two the flames will either look like they saw something others didn't or they saw something that wasn't there, or that they analysed his value perfectly to exchange the second rounder.

However it ends up the judgement of the trade will happen in the context of what did the rest of the league decide to do, in the same way we judge the draft.

Well I'm definitely not saying the Flames were the only team in a position where they could acquire Lazar, but I would guess the number is a lot closer to 1 then it is 29

But for sure, I think it likely that at least one other team could have made this move and didn't because they didn't like the asking price or didn't feel the expansion draft list change was worth the risk