Alberta Politics Thread

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Did you notice what parts he left out?

I think he left out increased municipal taxes (due to provincial government), and the billion dollar PPA debacle that everyone will have to pay for.

Nice of him to paint a rosier picture than reality.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Makarov

By all means, provide a source that you think is more current and more accurate. None of the posters decrying Alberta's rapid decent into Soviet economic collapse have done so so far.

Come on man, did you actually read the 'source' you posted and think it would support your point? Or did you just see the title, see that it supported your position and think: 'good enough.'

Yeah, close enough for Government work.

That article was so good it even provided actual numbers and comparisons adjusted per capita....oh, and current tax rates....oh, none of those? Hard hitting stuff.

Did they catch that guy on his way to lunch or something?

And either way, who gives half a crap about what our tax-burden is relative to the rest of the country? Does that prove a point about anything? We are still vastly spending beyond our means.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The state of denial about the false economy this province has been operating under for 20 years is remarkable. When it comes to taxes and public services, Albertans are collectively like the 34 year old welder in Fort Mac who made 130k, had a 600k mortgage, a new truck every three years, two snowmobiles, a boat in Sicamouse, and trips to Mexico and Vegas every year. And thought this was perfectly normal and likely to last until he retired.

Party's over for the taxpayers in this province. We'll have to start funding the world class schools, roads, and health care we expect the same way everyone else in the world who isn't fortunate enough to enjoy billions in energy royalty subsidies does - through income and consumption taxes. The only way Alberta can remain a low-tax jurisdiction is for cuts to government services that would make the early Klein years look like Denmark. Good luck getting those kind of bone-deep cuts passed in a province with so many young families and soccer moms who vote.

Want tax rates like Alabama? Expect the public health care and education quality of Alabama.

You've been banging this particular drum for a while now and I dont really understand why.

This doesnt seem like a drum that particularly requires banging.

We as a society have skirted off the coattails of the 'Evil Oil Corporations that we all should hate' for a quite a long time now and it likely appears as though that particular gravy train has pulled in to the end of the line.

Great. Point Conceded. Moving right along now.

The point of the matter is that we cannot keep running massive deficits in perpetuity or we end up like the tire fire that is Ontario.

We have raised every tax we have and even invented a new one and that has proven to still be wildly insufficient.

Guess where the next step has to be? And thats all I'm saying.

The answer cannot always be: tax them more!

And the reason for that is obvious. It is 'The Law of Diminishing Returns.'

'Bigger slices of a smaller and smaller pie.' The Government just taking bigger and bigger pieces is not a solution. It actually actively perpetuates the problem.

As I said before, we've raised every tax we have and invented a new one and it isnt enough to even remotely cover our costs, and in response our Government has....gone and spent more money.

If you want to talk about an unsustainable and harsh reality, there you have it. We cannot keep outspending our income.

Just ask the people whose benefits expire at the end of this month. And theres a lot of them. And the solution is hard choices. The option of constantly going around and asking people to throw more cash in the hat is rapidly diminishing.

This is the part where you say to me: Well, then you're going to have to suffer the loss of some public services.

Yeah, that would seem to be the obvious and primary result.

But we havent even tried that yet. We've expanded our public services, we've expanded our Government and their spending.

And yet nobody seems to blink an eye at it.

Thats like losing your job and then going out and buying a new car. If you knew someone who did that you'd think they were either insane or an idiot.

And yet here we are.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Slava

The other thing to consider is that most people realise that we need to pay more taxes and rely less on fossil fuels. That isn't an issue. Do we need to make that change at the bottom of the business cycle and make it that much more painful?

Most people realize we need to pay more taxes, but the issue is they don't want to. No matter how well the economy is doing, people don't like paying higher taxes. The timing of the change is what it is, the previous governments had the chance many times over to make these kinds of changes in better economic times but chose not to. The current government has to look at things realistically, it's fairly obvious to most that things aren't going to be fixed by maintaining status quo, if they wait a year or two and the economy doesn't improve much, would it make a whole lot of sense for them to introduce this tax at or near the end of their term? First of all people can argue over this all they want, but at the end of the day it's politics, good luck getting re-elected a couple months after introducing a new tax, before the anti-NDP pitchforks come out in droves keep in mind that this mentality is consistent for all parties. Secondly there would be no way of actually seeing the effect of this tax as every other party would likely run on a platform of repealing the tax if it was introduced heading into a campaign.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Most people realize we need to pay more taxes, but the issue is they don't want to. No matter how well the economy is doing, people don't like paying higher taxes. The timing of the change is what it is, the previous governments had the chance many times over to make these kinds of changes in better economic times but chose not to. The current government has to look at things realistically, it's fairly obvious to most that things aren't going to be fixed by maintaining status quo, if they wait a year or two and the economy doesn't improve much, would it make a whole lot of sense for them to introduce this tax at or near the end of their term? First of all people can argue over this all they want, but at the end of the day it's politics, good luck getting re-elected a couple months after introducing a new tax, before the anti-NDP pitchforks come out in droves keep in mind that this mentality is consistent for all parties. Secondly there would be no way of actually seeing the effect of this tax as every other party would likely run on a platform of repealing the tax if it was introduced heading into a campaign.

No. It isnt.

Thats the point. See: 'Law of Diminishing Returns.'

Raising some taxes, usage fees, okay, but just jacking up all taxes while spending indiscriminately while the economy lies in tattered ruins is just throwing kerosene into the blazing inferno.

[Ozy_Flame]

Maybe Albertans do need to look in the mirror and ask themselves how much they are willing to sacrifice to keep the government in line.

Because that's what it's ultimately going to come to. And the minute a regular Alberta household family starts noticing that the healthcare system is creating longer wait times, or that there are more potholes in the road, then its going to be mass frustration that the level of quality they've been receiving for so long can no longer be sustained.

I do agree that Alberta governments just love to add taxes - spending cuts seems to be falling by the wayside.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don't completely agree with this though. People might live the high life when times are good, but they also cut back when they're not. The welder who was making $130k a couple years ago and took a couple trips probably isn't doing that anymore. I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that our government could do some similar things. The government doesn't get carte blanche regarding spending just because we are increasing taxes.

I've always said government has to cut spending too. Substantially. The budget deficit is so enormous that we'll have to do both - substantially increase taxes and substantially cut spending - in order to to have any hope of balancing the budget.

Originally Posted by Slava

The other thing to consider is that most people realise that we need to pay more taxes and rely less on fossil fuels. That isn't an issue. Do we need to make that change at the bottom of the business cycle and make it that much more painful?

That's the same argument the NDP made for not cutting spending - do we really need to cut government jobs and salaries when unemployment is already so high?

But it's going to have to happen. Alberta will have to take its medicine to recover from its addiction to energy revenues. And it's going to taste awful.

The alternative is we take the Ontario approach and chronically run massive deficits without any plan to ever balance the budget. And sadly, given the denial of Albertans about this problem, and the cowardice of politicians, this is the most likely eventuality.

Originally Posted by stampsx2

How sad. Alberta is losing it's advantage because of this type of thinking. It's too bad.

Like the last poster said and it needs repeating. Equality for all, equity be damned.

Fyi alberta's health care wait times are already among the worst in canada even though they receive the second most funding after newfoundland.

The Alberta advantage was always tethered to the price of oil and gas. We aren't special people. We didn't hit on some magical formula that guaranteed prosperity. And now we're going to have to learn to live like everyone else in the world.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I think he left out increased municipal taxes (due to provincial government), and the billion dollar PPA debacle that everyone will have to pay for.

Nice of him to paint a rosier picture than reality.

Actually he forgot to mention any of his businesses earnings. Wow he's going to have to pay this much more for stuff, how much does he currently pay overall? How badly does this cut into his profits? So really the only picture he painted was that of a business owner telling us what he wanted us to hear and hoping no one was smart enough to question it.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

No. It isnt.

Thats the point. See: 'Law of Diminishing Returns.'

Raising some taxes, usage fees, okay, but just jacking up all taxes while spending indiscriminately while the economy lies in tattered ruins is just throwing kerosene into the blazing inferno.

What is your alternative solution? Wait it out? Even if that means until this government is potentially out of power? And then just hope that the wild rose or PCs implement it when(if?) the economy recovers?

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I think he left out increased municipal taxes (due to provincial government), and the billion dollar PPA debacle that everyone will have to pay for.

Nice of him to paint a rosier picture than reality.

There's no need to respond to his mindless drivel, and I won't be responding, but this is pretty good.

If anyone read the letter you will see he claims to have also had a significant drop in revenue. In other words, they're hurting with the economy and the government is piling on costs.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

The trouble with the 'tax burden' discussion is it always focuses on rates instead of dollars.

That's fine to debate fairness or how progressive the tax system should be, but ignoring that actual dollars means it's a half story at best.

Excluding resource revenues and including PSTs, the Alberta government still gets as much or more tax revenue than other provinces. I think only Quebec is meaningfully higher.

So what problem do we need to fix? Is it that Alberta gets less tax revenue than other provinces now that royalties have tanked? That's just not true. They have more to work with than most, even with a dead economy.

We can hike rates to feel better about that comparison if we want, but there's little reason to think that will grow the base and actual dollars at the same time, or that our habit of spending more than we earn is going to get fixed just because rates are higher.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Actually he forgot to mention any of his businesses earnings. Wow he's going to have to pay this much more for stuff, how much does he currently pay overall? How badly does this cut into his profits? So really the only picture he painted was that of a business owner telling us what he wanted us to hear and hoping no one was smart enough to question it.

He told us that his sales are dramatically decreasing and frankly I don't think that comes as a major surprise given the economy? He doesn't have to tell us how much he makes unless you're planning on making the argument that its fine for him to pay $30k more because "he can afford it".

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Slava

He told us that his sales are dramatically decreasing and frankly I don't think that comes as a major surprise given the economy? He doesn't have to tell us how much he makes unless you're planning on making the argument that its fine for him to pay $30k more because "he can afford it".

You don't think it's relevant information when someone is trying to make a case for how badly this will hurt his business?

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Maybe Albertans do need to look in the mirror and ask themselves how much they are willing to sacrifice to keep the government in line.

Because that's what it's ultimately going to come to. And the minute a regular Alberta household family starts noticing that the healthcare system is creating longer wait times, or that there are more potholes in the road, then its going to be mass frustration that the level of quality they've been receiving for so long can no longer be sustained.

I do agree that Alberta governments just love to add taxes - spending cuts seems to be falling by the wayside.

How about look at inefficiencies in government spending. Especially in healthcare. Why do Albertans have the longest wait times in the country but the almost the highest healthcare spending costs. 50 cents of every taxed dollar goes to healthcare in our province.

And yes, absolutely i'm willing to accept worse services and less taxes. Who wouldn't accept less services? I'm guessing those who work in the public sector. Start looking for inefficiencies now. Doctors have a lot of ideas on how to reduce costs and open up beds but administration won't listen to them.

I don't get how you can think corporations are so evil but the upper levels of ahs and the government are all saints.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

I don't get how you can think corporations are so evil but the upper levels of ahs and the government are all saints.

Haha what? Where did I say this?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You don't think it's relevant information when someone is trying to make a case for how badly this will hurt his business?

I think that the fact that he is facing significant decreases in business and increasing costs is probably enough to realise that its a terrible time to increase his costs. It's the same comment I made before though; people are all fine to look at a business (in this case) and say "so what? They make good money and they can just eat it and afford to pay."

You can't seriously be shocked that he is seeing significant declines in revenue over the past couple years, right? And you aren't debating that these costs seem accurate? So why not understand and recognize the obvious resulting predicament?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Slava

He told us that his sales are dramatically decreasing and frankly I don't think that comes as a major surprise given the economy? He doesn't have to tell us how much he makes unless you're planning on making the argument that its fine for him to pay $30k more because "he can afford it".

That is exactly the argument iggy_oi is making.

It creates a rather absurd scenario where attempting to succeed is bad and should be condemned.

Maybe that is what Cliff meant when he was talking about how we need to accept a "new reality".

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Locke

Raising some taxes, usage fees, okay, but just jacking up all taxes while spending indiscriminately while the economy lies in tattered ruins is just throwing kerosene into the blazing inferno.

Taxes had to go up. Who was going to raise them?... WR? PCAA? Whatever mutant party Jason Kenney envisions? Yes, the timing isn't optimal but it was either do this needed thing now when it's possible but not optimal or try to wait until it's optimal but potentially not possible.

Spending has to come down as well (and like raising taxes right now is not the optimal time to do that) but to be frank I have no more faith in any other party then I do in the NDP to do that at the optimal time (that being when the economy has recovered).

Politicians generally make terrible economists.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Slava

He told us that his sales are dramatically decreasing and frankly I don't think that comes as a major surprise given the economy? He doesn't have to tell us how much he makes unless you're planning on making the argument that its fine for him to pay $30k more because "he can afford it".

There are 32 Humpty's locations in Alberta, so this is adding roughly 1000 to the cost of doing g business for each location over the course of a year. Honestly I am surprised it is that low.

I wonder how this compares to the locations outside Alberta like in BC that already have tougher wage standards and a carbon tax. Did those locations shut down? I honestly don't know.

[Bownesian]

Most of those are franchises, likely, so the costs may well need to be multiplied across a bunch of small businesses rather than divided like you've done.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Taxes had to go up. Who was going to raise them?... WR? PCAA? Whatever mutant party Jason Kenney envisions? Yes, the timing isn't optimal but it was either do this needed thing now when it's possible but not optimal or try to wait until it's optimal but potentially not possible.

Spending has to come down as well (and like raising taxes right now is not the optimal time to do that) but to be frank I have no more faith in any other party then I do in the NDP to do that at the optimal time (that being when the economy has recovered).

Politicians generally make terrible economists.

I have zero confidence that the NDP will ever cut spending enough to balance the budget. And zero confidence the Wildrose or a Kenney PC party will ever collect enough taxes to balance the budget.

Alberta desperately needs a centrist government.