Alberta students to define their own gender

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This could go in the "you know what makes me happy" thread but I'll put it here instead. Sorry for length.

When the thread was started I thought "a thread that focuses on a section of the LGBT community on a sports-oriented Alberta-based message board? Oh. No." and I made my posts with a bit of anger and fear behind them. Vox honestly annoyed me with his lack of understanding. I went to bed thinking I was going to come back to see a group of people all mimicking Ezra Levant and talking about how awful this is and how the issue was going to invite perverts and sickos to prey on their children...

...but I woke up, and checked to find that I was very wrong. I wanted to thank Rouge, jays, Daradon, Roast, craigwd, and anyone I missed who represented this place in a great way. I'm not trans but as a member of the same community I have to say the impact of having that support is immeasurable. I also wanted to thank Vox for posing his concerns as true concerns and not as a way to hide some hate-filled message. Thank you for LISTENING and trying to understand even if on the end you aren't 100% comfortable or even 50% comfortable. Thank you for trying.

Sure, there have already been a couple "this doesn't matter" or "respect my opinion too!" posts, which is fine, and the thread is still new so I expect more, but for those of you who came out in support as the majority... you may not always know how much your opinion matters. It's easy for you to just say "yeah, I support that" even if the road to get to that support was long but for the kids or adults who read that and NEED that support? You've done so much more.

Anyways - thanks. That's what I'm trying to say really.

This was the highpoint in the thread. It was the first one I read after participating last night. Unfortunately after this we went into "Well, aren't there bigger issues, why are we worried about this?" crap that's sidetracked LGBT threads over the years on CP.

Pretty tough to take the "There's bigger issues" crowd at face value.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This was the highpoint in the thread. It was the first one I read after participating last night. Unfortunately after this we went into "Well, aren't there bigger issues, why are we worried about this?" crap that's sidetracked LGBT threads over the years on CP.

Pretty tough to take the "There's bigger issues" crowd at face value.

It always feels so great to be fighting against the forces of evil, doesn't it?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

It seems disingenuous to describe any of the conversation in this thread as "crap". I see no great swell of offensive posts. Just a lot of normal discussion.

But please, point out the bigots because I've had my pitchfork ready and waiting for the last three years...

[peter12]

Most of the posts in this thread have been disingenuous and snide.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

To be fair Peter this is a hotbutton issue and even though I've seen nothing from you to suggest that you are anti-trans, people are going to be very sensitive to anyone who appears to oppose these measures.

I don't agree with all of your points and to me it seems like you are definitely more anti-bureaucracy than anti-trans, but I'm not surprised that any posts that aren't supportive are met with some pretty fierce opposition. These types of issues often have the bigots hiding behind a veil of other reasons that they use to hide their true agenda.

[peter12]

I have never said anything that could be construed as anti-trans. Any attempt to paint me as such indicates what I have said - there are some people here who cannot imagine anyone having a different opinion than they one they themselves hold.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When I was teaching physed to kids as old as 15 I was trying to get them to run to the correct base on the diamond, we weren't terrible concerned that one of the boys had a better slugging percentage or ran a faster 40 than one of the girls.

Based on the 16 year olds I know, both the girls and the boys could use the information provided by sitting in on the other groups sex ed class.

I wasn't talking about gym class. I was talking about the competitive sports. High School sports are a big deal to high level athletes.

I'll agree with your second point that both sexes should sit in on both groups sex ed classes. That makes a lot of sense actually. Kind of immature and silly that it wasn't like that when I was in school.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I disagree. The pendulum tends to swing back and forth on these things. As the pendulum in the West moves past soft liberal and into the authoritarian hard left, the reaction against it will build up (because most people in the West do still value individual liberty highly), and the pendulum will swing back the other way...

I sincerely wish you are right on this, actually. I just don't believe it is going to swing back towards centre. Hard authoritarian left is winning all over Canada. And once the pendulum passes the progressive-soft-left-intellectual point, it's into the radical–STFU–left zone, where it's going to stay for a long time. Easier for politicians to buy votes in that zone, easier to make promises, easier to govern, easier to subdue the discourse, easier to label all disagreed as the enemy of good.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

I wasn't talking about gym class. I was talking about the competitive sports. High School sports are a big deal to high level athletes.

No they're not. No one is going to lose a scholarship because a transgender woman won the 100M.

[rubecube]

It's really weird that peter classified this as a top-down thing, when it's been something that LGBTQ activists and parents of trans children have been pushing for years.

[Coach]

Hmm there are some interesting points in here. On one hand, having kids self-identify their gender, before they even understand what that really means, is not something I really agree with. Maybe they get confused and a girl identifies as a boy just because shes a "tom-boy" and likes doing "boy" things, but that doesn't mean she recognizes (or should recognize) herself as a boy. She's just a girl that likes hanging with the boys. That doesn't necessarily make her a male in her soul. And she might veer away from those things as she grows older and becomes more of a woman by traditional standards. I think the anecdotal evidence would tell you that kids don't particularly know or care what another kid's gender is. They hang out with people they like.

On the other hand, I really don't think that parents can be left to themselves on these issues. I think that they have proven time and again to be the cause of problems with kids that they don't understand. Much of the issues surrounded LGBT kids are the result of lack of acceptance from their parents, and I think it's the same for issues of gender. And, in congruent with the idea that kids of a certain age don't care about their friends gender, bullying problems tends i think tend to flow from the parents and them instilling outdated ideas in their kids, which I do think is a big problem.

So I don't know if I think that a 'self-identifying" form or something is the way to go, but a mandatory program, like sex-ed (which should also be mandatory), where they educated kids on up-to-date issues of gender and sexuality, and why there isn't a "normal", but just a range of differences. I also think these types of courses should be mandatory for parents.

"You want your kid to attend our school? Great! We have semi-annual mandatory assemblies for parents to attend on issues of sexuality, gender and bullying. Oh, you don't want to do that? Well every school in the province has these mandates, so here's a brochure on how to home-school your child. I suggest you don't avoid the chapters dealing with these subjects you find to be 'uncomfortable'."

[polak]

Originally Posted by rubecube

No they're not. No one is going to lose a scholarship because a transgender woman won the 100M.

Ummm that's exactly what could happen.

Plus how do you think a regular womens team will compete with a womans team with two or more biological males playing on it cause they identify as women? Imagine if that's a championship game and all of the sudden the best girl on the other team is better defended against cause she's up against a biological man and boom. Bye Bye scholarship.

Men and Women should be separated in sports. Jesus. Why does everything have to so inclusive these days.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yeah, maybe. I tend to see it is an alarming trend, not towards recognizing, and validating the experiences of transgendered children, but rather the ham-handed, edu-speak drive to do something that may or may not be effective.

I tend to think that families, and children are far more resilient than you seem to think.

Well let's put it this way then, peter. We know that in the current system that transgender youth are at a high risk of suicide and various forms of assault. Now that may be a case of correlation and not causation, but I'm highly skeptical of that. Either way though, we know that status quo isn't working. Is there not some sort of obligation on us as a society to try and protect those who are at risk?

What irks me, and strikes me as actually blatantly totalitarian, is this assumption that we all have to have the same opinion. You, and others, should be ashamed of yourselves for not taking the views of others as seriously as your own.

Oh geeze, this crap again. It's not totalitarian to take certain opinions more seriously than others when their supporting arguments merit it.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

Ummm that's exactly what could happen.

Plus how do you think a regular womens team will compete with a womans team with two or more biological males playing on it cause they identify as women? Imagine if that's a championship game and all of the sudden the best girl on the other team is better defended against cause she's up against a biological man and boom. Bye Bye scholarship.

Men and Women should be separated in sports. Jesus. Why does everything have to so inclusive these days.

Really? You honestly think university scouts completely lack the ability to recognize context and extenuating circumstances?

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by rubecube

...It's not totalitarian to take certain opinions more seriously than others when their supporting arguments merit it.

You are correct. This is not totalitarian. This is aggressively intolerant to an opposing opinion. It does become totalitarian, when this same aggressive intolerance starts coming from the government, educational institutions and mass-media.

[polak]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Really? You honestly think university scouts completely lack the ability to recognize context and extenuating circumstances?

The whole idea that this has to be a consideration so some kid is allowed to play soccer with the girls is lunacy.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by polak

The whole idea that this has to be a consideration so some kid is allowed to play soccer with the girls is lunacy.

Highly competitive sports in school is hardly the most important part of this. Surely you must see that?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

The whole idea that this has to be a consideration so some kid is allowed to play soccer with the girls is lunacy.

That's not it at all actually, but thanks for coming out. The idea is that someone shouldn't be denied the ability to participate in sports or be made to stand out in a way that makes them the target of bullying/assault just because they don't identify with the genitals they were born with.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by polak

The whole idea that this has to be a consideration so some kid is allowed to play soccer with the girls is lunacy.

No, the idea is so that some girl can play soccer with the girls.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by polak

Ummm that's exactly what could happen.

Plus how do you think a regular womens team will compete with a womans team with two or more biological males playing on it cause they identify as women? Imagine if that's a championship game and all of the sudden the best girl on the other team is better defended against cause she's up against a biological man and boom. Bye Bye scholarship.

Men and Women should be separated in sports. Jesus. Why does everything have to so inclusive these days.

The kids will learn a very important lesson, life isn't fair. Get used to it.