[News] Bettman urges new arena ASAP

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Bettman is not exactly a likable figure that can be rallied behind.

Meh, whether he's likeable or not is a small concern.

The real problem with the pitch is that CS&E (and by extension Bettman) isn't approaching the citizenship as stakeholders. They should be trying to make a business case as to why stakeholders should pursue this particular business deal not emotional appeals to sentiment.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Well, on the bright side Bettman did get people talking about it again. As loathed as the guy is he at least made some headlines on a topic that had basically disappeared.

King seems to have gone into hiding after his little powerpoint presentation.. I just hope there isn't a rift between King and Nenshi that can't be overcome.

Ken King needs to go. He was terrible as hockey ops president, but after Burke came aboard we were assured that he was devoting all of his time to the business side of things and the new arena proposal. If Calgary Next is all he has to show for that devotion, he's completely inept at his job

[Lanny_McDonald]

@nfotiu

Sorry you feel that way. Was just tying to share my experiences living in other cities. I was born and raised in Calgary in a time when the Albera Wheatpool Building was the tallest in town and the population had just crested 110,000 people. I got to watch that small town grow into what I considered a vibrant cosmopolitan city. I loved Calgary and still do, or at least the memory of what Calgary was before I moved away. It seems I only get back there now for funerals, and there seem to be too many of those for my liking. But the one thing I do notice when I get back is Calgary still has the small city problems and the small city thinking. I've been gone for nearly two decades and many of the problems still plague the city. When I left a few of the big issues were air port expansion, getting the ring road done over the Weasel Head, and dealing with the creosote problems at the bus terminal lands. 20 years later, same problems exist. Why? Small city thinking. Not an insult, just the approach City Counsil takes in dealing with matters.

Frankly, this whole mess just needs the adults to come to the table and strike a bargain. This could be so simple if it were not for small town politics and posturing. The Flames have the money to build the majority of the project. They know this and they will kick in what they need to. They are just trying to limit the cost or find a way to extend the financing in a creative way. The city has the land for the project and the money for the field house. The whole problem here is figuring out how to finance the project in the most feasible manner and sharing costs so everyone is happy in the long run. To me the simplest solution is for the city to commit the land for the project and money for the field house. The city works with the province for the infrastructure improvements, and the site remediation cost is recovered from the previous owner. The cost of the area is covered by the Flames. Since the city wants specific input into the facility to meet its needs the costs of the design and project management should be a shared cost and covered by a use tax/levy. This would be a good compromise and share the costs fairly. The city would get what it wants, the Flames get what they want, and everyone walks away happy. The last thing to nail down is the management side of the facilities but I think this is a no brainer. The Flames would manage both facilities and receive all revenues from the arena. I think the field house should be operated as a non-profit and the Stampeders use of the facility be based on this understanding. This would insure the legacy of this facility and its up keep for years to come. Again, everyone wins, including the citizens of Calgary.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Who in their right mind thought that Bettman coming to Calgary and threatening the city would be an effective tactic? Bettman is not exactly a likable figure that can be rallied behind.

Instead of the heat being on King (alone) for his bungled proposal, a lot of the anger is now directed at Bettman and Nenshi. His visit achieved that, at least.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I'm not OK with the CGYNext proposal. But they are not asking for $1 billion from the city.

I am guilty of referencing 1B dollars so here's my justification for it.

What we know the city is paying:
- 240 million CRL
- 200 million for the field house

What we assume the city will pay:
- 300-400 million for creosote cleanup
- 100-200 million for bow trail realignment

What is likely for the city to front:
- 250 million ticket tax (funded by city, recouped from users)

Operationally, the original proposal had the City of Calgary owning the building, so they will pay all the utilities, taxes, renovations, repairs to be done.

Seems pretty close to 1B to me.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Who in their right mind thought that Bettman coming to Calgary and threatening the city would be an effective tactic? Bettman is not exactly a likable figure that can be rallied behind.

I was hoping that the reason for the constant delays in the announcement of the arena plans was because the Flames were busy getting their ducks in a row to ensure that the announcement had the backing of the city. I'm not sure if King and Co., thought that Calgarians would be so excited by their plans that they would lobby their Councillors/Mayor to get on board but that simply isn't the way things work.

Is anyone surprised by Bettman's tactics though? I guess a few people seem to be ripping him, including Nenshi, for doing exactly his job. We all know how this works. Why are we pretending like what he said is so insulting? Bettman's job is to support the team's vision and try and make the city pay for as much as possible. That's what is in the best interest of the owners. You know, the guys who selected him and keep him employed.

Of course Bettman is going to feed us a bunch of biased BS. I wouldn't expect any less. Could anyone actually imagine a scenario where he comes out and says "yeah it's unfair for taxpayers to pay for this, those rich owners of the Flames should pay for it themselves?". He went pretty far the other way but I'm certainly not insulted. I can read between the lines. He's saying what he's saying for maximum effect.

Nenshi really needed to take the high road here. Meeting with Bettman or not, who really cares? What he should have said was "I fundamentally disagree with Mr Bettman's statements on the future of the city of Calgary. Myself, council and many Calgarians value the Calgary Flames organization very much and appreciate their contributions to the city. That being said, at present we are not in a position to support, fund or approve the Calgary Next plans until we are able to evaluate the current proposal and negotiate further with the Calgary Flames, NHL, city and province etc. I recognize the importance of new facilities for both the Flames and Stampeders but my job is to do what is best for all Calgarians and as such I will push for a proposal that benefits the city as a whole."

No shots at the NHL, no pissing off NHL fans, no crapping on those pesky 1%ers and billionaires who are trying to freeload on our taxdollars. Just a professional statement (that I wrote in about 2 mins).

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by D as in David

Instead of the heat being on King for his bungled proposal, a lot of the anger is now directed at Bettman and Nenshi. His visit achieved that, at least.

The only people who are directing it at Nenshi are the people who didn't like him to begin with, this just gave them an opportunity to do so. Bettman is getting destroyed almost everywhere. And most people here are finally realizing (if they didn't before) that King has done an exceptionally poor job managing this situation. Nenshi's only being criticized for form if anything, but most people agree with him in being against public money.

[DiracSpike]

haha when did Bettman become a billionaire? I guess Nenshi must have checked the guys tax returns before he fired off that tweet. Is there anything more patronizing than dismissing someone off-hand because they're rich and from NYC?

I voted for Nenshi twice and as long as there's someone competent opposing him next election I won't be voting for him a third time. The guy's become a cartoon character.

[pylon]

I piled on Nenshi, and I still believe he is being a smarmy little twerp in all this. However, I also agree with the sentiment that Ken King has handled this like a complete amateur. I'm surprised he didn't show up with this:



"I added this racing stripe, and I think that's pretty smart."

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by New Era

@nfotiu

Sorry you feel that way. Was just tying to share my experiences living in other cities. I was born and raised in Calgary in a time when the Albera Wheatpool Building was the tallest in town and the population had just crested 110,000 people. I got to watch that small town grow into what I considered a vibrant cosmopolitan city. I loved Calgary and still do, or at least the memory of what Calgary was before I moved away. It seems I only get back there now for funerals, and there seem to be too many of those for my liking. But the one thing I do notice when I get back is Calgary still has the small city problems and the small city thinking. I've been gone for nearly two decades and many of the problems still plague the city. When I left a few of the big issues were air port expansion, getting the ring road done over the Weasel Head, and dealing with the creosote problems at the bus terminal lands. 20 years later, same problems exist. Why? Small city thinking. Not an insult, just the approach City Counsil takes in dealing with matters.

Frankly, this whole mess just needs the adults to come to the table and strike a bargain. This could be so simple if it were not for small town politics and posturing. The Flames have the money to build the majority of the project. They know this and they will kick in what they need to. They are just trying to limit the cost or find a way to extend the financing in a creative way. The city has the land for the project and the money for the field house. The whole problem here is figuring out how to finance the project in the most feasible manner and sharing costs so everyone is happy in the long run. To me the simplest solution is for the city to commit the land for the project and money for the field house. The city works with the province for the infrastructure improvements, and the site remediation cost is recovered from the previous owner. The cost of the area is covered by the Flames. Since the city wants specific input into the facility to meet its needs the costs of the design and project management should be a shared cost and covered by a use tax/levy. This would be a good compromise and share the costs fairly. The city would get what it wants, the Flames get what they want, and everyone walks away happy. The last thing to nail down is the management side of the facilities but I think this is a no brainer. The Flames would manage both facilities and receive all revenues from the arena. I think the field house should be operated as a non-profit and the Stampeders use of the facility be based on this understanding. This would insure the legacy of this facility and its up keep for years to come. Again, everyone wins, including the citizens of Calgary.

This is a pretty good starting proposal but the part I bolded would be the key negotiation. The city would want to manage the facilities, especially for things other than Stampeders. For example if there was an international event like the Commonweath Games or World Track and Field or World Cup, the city doesn't want to have to negotiate through the Flames in order to rent out the facility.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I am guilty of referencing 1B dollars so here's my justification for it.

What we know the city is paying:
- 240 million CRL
- 200 million for the field house

What we assume the city will pay:
- 300-400 million for creosote cleanup
- 100-200 million for bow trail realignment

What is likely for the city to front:
- 250 million ticket tax (funded by city, recouped from users)

Operationally, the original proposal had the City of Calgary owning the building, so they will pay all the utilities, taxes, renovations, repairs to be done.

Seems pretty close to 1B to me.

+ the value of the land CalgaryNEXT will be situated on.
+ the cost of infrastructure upgrades (other than Bow Tr realignment) to make the area ready for development.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by DJones

As someone in the construction industry I have to strongly disagree. I don't really care about snarky twitter remarks that are considered 'hip' though. Some people seem to love him solely for those comments. Mind blowing to me.

The Uber and taxi situation is ugly as well.

The Uber and Taxi situation is far from ugly and has been handled quite well given the experiences in other cities. Look at Toronto. Even Edmonton has had their own screw ups with the Uber situation: the city cannot even force an injunction on the right parties, so Uber is in limbo where at least in Calgary, a plan is being made and a deadline has been given. The taxi industry is hardly fighting.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

haha when did Bettman become a billionaire? I guess Nenshi must have checked the guys tax returns before he fired off that tweet. Is there anything more patronizing than dismissing someone off-hand because they're rich and from NYC?

I voted for Nenshi twice and as long as there's someone competent opposing him next election I won't be voting for him a third time. The guy's become a cartoon character.

Nenshi has the maturity of a 13 year old girl. Instead of actually providing leadership on this issue he bows out and snipes from the sidelines on twitter. He is a a mean girl, not a mayor.

[Tinordi]

Hiding in plain sight in this whole debate is the fact that the Flames could simply just build their own arena. They have the financial means to do so.

The alternative isn't a billion public dollars or no arena. An alternative is much much less public dollars, a more manageable development that fits with the city's greater community development plan and an arena paid for by, you know, the people who will reap the largest share of the benefits.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I am guilty of referencing 1B dollars so here's my justification for it.

What we know the city is paying:
- 240 million CRL
- 200 million for the field house

Yes. And that $200m was going to be allocated for such a facility anyways.

What we assume the city will pay:
- 300-400 million for creosote cleanup
- 100-200 million for bow trail realignment

Tough to comment on the cost of the creosote clean-up because A) we don't know how much it will cost and B) we don't know who will end up paying for it (my guess is a combination of the city and province when all is said and done). The bow trail realignment needs to be done stadium or not. I don't really factor that in for that reason.

What is likely for the city to front:
- 250 million ticket tax (funded by city, recouped from users)

Possibly, but this would be a loan (which should actually make the city money) and will be paid for by Flames revenues, so while the city MAY front the cost for it, it shouldn't hit tax payers because that's not how the loan is to be paid. Either way, if the city rejects fronting that, the owners will go to private financing.

Operationally, the original proposal had the City of Calgary owning the building, so they will pay all the utilities, taxes, renovations, repairs to be done.

Sure, but that also means they should have a cut of profits made from the facilities. Not from the actual hockey team and their revenue, but parking, concerts/exhibitions, etc. Not saying these will offset all the operation costs, but the costs aren't the whole picture.

The problem is there is a lot of "should" and "if" and "probably" in there because we really don't know, and what people (myself included) are ticked about is that they should have had this all figured out before they had any sort of presentation to city council or to the general public. That combined with the very thin threat of relocation (it won't happen, and if they are going to leave for this reason then f*** em anyways. I like the Flames as much as anyone but that is straight BS. Someone will want to operate an NHL franchise in one of Canada's most prosperous cities, yes even with the current downturn).

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Basically Bettman is saying to Flames ownership and the Mayor. Enough delaying get together and get to action.
They say action speaks louder than words. The Flames and Nenshi are not even talking it is ridiculous.

Why do you assume they aren't talking? because he wouldn't talk to Bettman? what does Gary Bettman have to do with Calgary spending money on a new arena? he has no say whatsoever.

Also, what makes you think Nenshi and the Flames haven't spoken about the arena? Everything has been closed door.

[northcrunk]

Maybe we should just scrap it so we can build bike lanes covering the downtown. They are so useful.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I am guilty of referencing 1B dollars so here's my justification for it.

What we know the city is paying:
- 240 million CRL
- 200 million for the field house

What we assume the city will pay:
- 300-400 million for creosote cleanup
- 100-200 million for bow trail realignment

What is likely for the city to front:
- 250 million ticket tax (funded by city, recouped from users)

Operationally, the original proposal had the City of Calgary owning the building, so they will pay all the utilities, taxes, renovations, repairs to be done.

Seems pretty close to 1B to me.

The CRL will be needed regardless of who develops the area, just like it was for the East Village.

The field house needs to be funded regardless of it's inclusion in this project or not.

Creosote cleanup needs to happen even if the site is never developed.

Bow Trail realignment also needs to happen if that area is ever going to be utilized to it's full potential.

The Ticket Tax money is a loan, that the city can charge interest on.

So basically all of your 1B is getting spent regardless of CalgaryNEXT happening or not happening.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Hiding in plain sight in this whole debate is the fact that the Flames could simply just build their own arena. They have the financial means to do so.

But unfortunately in the States and Canada, too many cities have handed hundreds of millions of dollars to sports teams to build new arenas/stadiums and subsidised them in other ways.

So why would our owners sit there and think they should pay the whole costs? Never going to happen, no matter how much money they have.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Maybe we should just scrap it so we can build bike lanes covering the downtown. They are so useful.

You need to post more about your disdain for bike-lane.