May 2015 Provincial Election Thread v2

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Hey dude I'm kind of sick today, can you swing by and weld this for me? You're swell.

I think this is the most inane post I've read on this forum.

You're ignorant if you think that farmers don't help each other out all the time, let alone all the family members who chip in and are unpaid....

[Ozy_Flame]

I'm losing focus on what farmers want here. Do they want no OHS coverage for family farms? Or do they want special exemption for certain parts of it because of the goodwill system?

I'm having a hard time supporting either side. However, if the argument is "we've been doing it this long without any OHS, why change now" then I'm not sure that's enough grounds to stand on. Conversely. the NDP haven't done enough homework on this and are backtracking. So perhaps both sides need to come to a reasonable middle ground.

And if that's what happens - negotiating a reasonable middle ground - then I would say democracy is a success, since the people spoke up and the government listened.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

The goal is that the employer (again, like every other employer in the country, literally), pays into WCB for coverage so that if their employee/worker gets hurt while working for them, WCB shoulders the burden of the injured worker rather than EI, or homelessness.

On top of that, OH&S regulation and inspection can be applied to injury situations so compliance can be enforced, and unsafe operations shut down.

On top of on top of that, employees will also now qualify for vacation pay and minimum wage.

Ha! No. No they wont. They'll be hired on as contractors or casual labour responsible for their own WCB and all the dreams you've just listed will never happen.

You think farmers are going to establish a CRA payroll account, engage a payroll company if they dont want to do it themselves to start making bi-weekly EI, CPP and Tax remittances while calculating their employees' vacation pay?

Oh yeah and they get can punch-clocks too! They can strap it to a horse's ass so their employees can clock in and out as needed in order to determine the hours they work.

So the actual WCB doesnt mean jack, its just about formalizing the employment relationship.

What garbage. I mean, a small farming operation shouldnt be held to the same employment standards as some corporate firm, thats insane. There are costs and inconveniences to that especially as small farms have people come and go all the time, it would be grossly inefficient and even worse, it would be grossly inefficient for absolutely no good reason.

I do like how you've wrapped the real reason in the warm, loving embrace of 'caring for people hurt by farm work.'

[polak]

Locke, here are some numbers I was able to find:

Right now, less than five per cent of the province's 40,000 farms and ranches carry the coverage

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...bill-1.3323407

25 people who might still be alive if this bill was already in place and farms with poor safety records were shut down.

* Deaths: Between 1990 and 2009, 355 people were killed on Alberta farms and 60% of deaths involved heavy machinery. For every death, there were roughly 25 hospital admissions related to farm work and of those 25, 11 included major trauma. The Chief Medical Officer recorded 25 deaths in 2014, including 12 people over 59 years old and two people under 18 years old

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/11/1...ker-protection

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Because other provinces have exemptions and different rules based on the size of the number of employees. Different rules for corporate farms then for family farms. This did not exist in what the NDP purposed. You and Phsychnet have to be trolling, how else can two posters be so polarized on this yet be so uninformed.

Having a hard time finding these exemptions for the other provinces. Any links?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by vegasbound

Okay, I've worked under OHS legislation. My family owned a dairy farm in BC also, who has OHS but people who have less than 10 employees on it. Same with Saskatchewan OHS. They get it.

I don't think you understand what farmers are asking... We're not asking for a complete exemption here! At all! We want amendments to it. The same OHS legislation that I worked under will NOT fit farms. I'm not going to wear a freaking hard hat to enter a commercial work space to go feed cows. Forget that. We're asking for a policy review. Entering grain bins, tractors, feeding cows... we want specifics on that and how OHS will deal with that. How is all that so hard to comprehend?

So how come farmers didn't even give half a #### about Bill 6 when the PCs passed it in January 2014, with a 2 year exemption granted to farmers to get their house in order?

Suddenly, it's an issue?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Locke

Ha! No. No they wont. They'll be hired on as contractors or casual labour responsible for their own WCB and all the dreams you've just listed will never happen.

You think farmers are going to establish a CRA payroll account, engage a payroll company if they dont want to do it themselves to start making bi-weekly EI, CPP and Tax remittances while calculating their employees' vacation pay?

Oh yeah and they get can punch-clocks too! They can strap it to a horse's ass so their employees can clock in and out as needed in order to determine the hours they work.

So the actual WCB doesnt mean jack, its just about formalizing the employment relationship.

What garbage. I mean, a small farming operation shouldnt be held to the same employment standards as some corporate firm, thats insane. There are costs and inconveniences to that especially as small farms have people come and go all the time, it would be grossly inefficient and even worse, it would be grossly inefficient for absolutely no good reason.

I do like how you've wrapped the real reason in the warm, loving embrace of 'caring for people hurt by farm work.'

Well they'll do whatever paperwork it takes to rake in some of that sweet sweet 7,000,000,000/year federal subsidy money.

[vegasbound]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'm losing focus on what farmers want here. Do they want no OHS coverage for family farms? Or do they want special exemption for certain parts of it because of the goodwill system?

I'm having a hard time supporting either side. However, if the argument is "we've been doing it this long without any OHS, why change now" then I'm not sure that's enough grounds to stand on. Conversely. the NDP haven't done enough homework on this and are backtracking. So perhaps both sides need to come to a reasonable middle ground.

And if that's what happens - negotiating a reasonable middle ground - then I would say democracy is a success, since the people spoke up and the government listened.

Farmers want a specific OHS policy for them, not a blanket one. Not one that covers the construction industry but one that takes into consideration everything that goes on in a farming operation. As far as WCB- I'm all for it so I won't say anything on that.

I know me, personally, am more mad about how the government is handling this. Back tracking, Notley throwing her ministers under a bus, not consulting farmers at all, no amendments that the public can see. Much less trying to push this bill through.

[Derek Sutton]

The Golden Goose in all of this is the WCB funding increase Notley (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR3-_GjYWr8) promised back in 2012. 40,000 farms paying say $1500/ yr in WCB premiums equals $60,000,000 a year more for WCB, that is one reason the NDP were so hell bent of pushing this through for Jan 2016.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

So how come farmers didn't even give half a #### about Bill 6 when the PCs passed it in January 2014, with a 2 year exemption granted to farmers to get their house in order?

Suddenly, it's an issue?

Now I may be wrong here.. But the bill was introduced on Nov 17th. They may have been told 2 years ago but they didn't have any specifics. Don't know how you talk about something in which you don't know what the rules will be.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Locke

Ha! No. No they wont. They'll be hired on as contractors or casual labour responsible for their own WCB and all the dreams you've just listed will never happen.

You think farmers are going to establish a CRA payroll account, engage a payroll company if they dont want to do it themselves to start making bi-weekly EI, CPP and Tax remittances while calculating their employees' vacation pay?

Oh yeah and they get can punch-clocks too! They can strap it to a horse's ass so their employees can clock in and out as needed in order to determine the hours they work.

So the actual WCB doesnt mean jack, its just about formalizing the employment relationship.

What garbage. I mean, a small farming operation shouldnt be held to the same employment standards as some corporate firm, thats insane. There are costs and inconveniences to that especially as small farms have people come and go all the time, it would be grossly inefficient and even worse, it would be grossly inefficient for absolutely no good reason.

I do like how you've wrapped the real reason in the warm, loving embrace of 'caring for people hurt by farm work.'

What? How are all of these other small family businesses able to follow such regulations?

You know what businesses do if they can't make time for admin activities? Cause you should considering it's people like you that they hire to do it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'm losing focus on what farmers want here. Do they want no OHS coverage for family farms? Or do they want special exemption for certain parts of it because of the goodwill system?

I'm having a hard time supporting either side. However, if the argument is "we've been doing it this long without any OHS, why change now" then I'm not sure that's enough grounds to stand on. Conversely. the NDP haven't done enough homework on this and are backtracking. So perhaps both sides need to come to a reasonable middle ground.

And if that's what happens - negotiating a reasonable middle ground - then I would say democracy is a success, since the people spoke up and the government listened.

My point has been that if its all about the WCB then all we're talking about is subsidizing health care costs through one form of insurance or another.

Ie. If someone gets hurt who pays? If its the Province through health care and theres no kick-in from the farmers themselves via WCB or Insurance then yeah, that makes sense. Its a high-risk profession and they should be insured so as not be a burden on the system.

But its a dangerous profession and they're all insured, so that doesnt seem to be the problem. So what is the problem?

Is it just about moving the farmer' money from a private insurance program to a public one?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Now I may be wrong here.. But the bill was introduced on Nov 17th. They may have been told 2 years ago but they didn't have any specifics. Don't know how you talk about something in which you don't know what the rules will be.

The initial changes that were brought up in RSA 2000 cE-9 to change OH&S compliance on farms were passed in January 2014, with a 2 year analysis and feedback exemption granted to be tabled again prior to January 2016.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Locke

My point has been that if its all about the WCB then all we're talking about is subsidizing health care costs through one form of insurance or another.

Ie. If someone gets hurt who pays? If its the Province through health care and theres no kick-in from the farmers themselves via WCB or Insurance then yeah, that makes sense. Its a high-risk profession and they should be insured so as not be a burden on the system.

But its a dangerous profession and they're all insured, so that doesnt seem to be the problem. So what is the problem?

Is it just about moving the farmer' money from a private insurance program to a public one?

So you're perfectly fine with someone losing a limb/life on a worksite with no investigation launched?

The RCMP only investigates if they believe foul play is involved, if not it falls to OH&S, which has no jurisdiction on farms.

[polak]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

The initial changes that were brought up in RSA 2000 cE-9 to change OH&S compliance on farms were passed in January 2014, with a 2 year analysis and feedback exemption granted to be tabled again prior to January 2016.

Dude they don't have time to read bills or follow politics.

[vegasbound]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

The initial changes that were brought up in RSA 2000 cE-9 to change OH&S compliance on farms were passed in January 2014, with a 2 year analysis and feedback exemption granted to be tabled again prior to January 2016.

I just googled whatever you're talking about and that's Employment Standards.... NOT OHS

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by polak

How is then that farmers in the other provinces can operate with such ridiculous regulations set on them?

They don't

http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/ndp-gover...ll-6-1.2682577

Watch the video - fast forward to 1:31

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by vegasbound

I just googled whatever you're talking about and that's Employment Standards.... NOT OHS

Employment Standards dovetails into OH&S.

It was Employment Standards code E-9, Labour Relations code L-1, and OHSA code O-2.

Again original revisions were passed in Jan 14 with an exemption given for review til Jan 16, which Bill 6 covers (which is essentially, removal of the exemption).

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

So you're perfectly fine with someone losing a limb/life on a worksite with no investigation launched?

The RCMP only investigates if they believe foul play is involved, if not it falls to OH&S, which has no jurisdiction on farms.

So this is all about allowing OH&S to investigate and enforce safety standards on farms?

Is this a huge problem? Do people get hurt on farms and then just let it go? No consequences, no incentive to have as safe an environment as possible and no compensation?

I have absolutely no idea what problem they're trying to fix.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Locke

So this is all about allowing OH&S to investigate and enforce safety standards on farms?

Is this a huge problem? Do people get hurt on farms and then just let it go? No consequences, no incentive to have as safe an environment as possible and no compensation?

I have absolutely no idea what problem they're trying to fix.

That is exactly it. There is no recourse or recompense for a farm worker (or really, any person) injured while on a farm. None.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by vegasbound

Okay, I've worked under OHS legislation. My family owned a dairy farm in BC also, who has OHS but people who have less than 10 employees on it. Same with Saskatchewan OHS. They get it.

I don't think you understand what farmers are asking... We're not asking for a complete exemption here! At all! We want amendments to it. The same OHS legislation that I worked under will NOT fit farms. I'm not going to wear a freaking hard hat to enter a commercial work space to go feed cows. Forget that. We're asking for a policy review. Entering grain bins, tractors, feeding cows... we want specifics on that and how OHS will deal with that. How is all that so hard to comprehend?

Why not?

Pretty much all farm activities should require steel toed boots. Not sure on hard hats. Lockouts being required on equipment before servicing. Fall protection at heights. These are things that OHS would require that certainly weren't practiced when I was growing up.

There is definitely a lack of a safety culture on farms. The statement that accidents happen is used too frequently.