Truth and Reconciliation Commission

[northcrunk]

I don't think more cash is the awnser to anyones problems. The reserve system seems to be more of a hinderance to progress than it helps.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

I don't think more cash is the awnser to anyones problems. The reserve system seems to be more of a hinderance to progress than it helps.

I agree with this. It's pretty much a system put in place by the same people that thought residential schools were a good idea. No wonder it's a huge failure.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Doesn't make it good.

I didn't say it was good. I said that up until recently, when it came to aid for the poor the choices were:

1) Church
2) Nothing

Originally Posted by Two Fivenagame

Can we also blame the christians since it seems they were heavily involved?

I would love to see any funding required for restorative programs to come from the church.

Many Catholic diocese around the world are declaring bankruptcy over the abuse scandals and shrinking congregations. You can't get blood from a stone. And many Natives - especially older Natives - are Catholic (about 25 per cent total). It's a cruel irony, but if Canadian diocese were to go bankrupt, it would hurt older natives more than most.

[GGG]

I like the recommendations of the report in getting better education and spending into reserves. Education, hopefully led by native teachers, is definately part of the solution.

I think a huge one is private land rights. I don't see this addressed in the report but it definately keeps economic development on reserves stalled. Why do the Feds have to approve the sale of land from the Tsu Tina to the province. It extends to housing and why it gets run down, people have no investment in it.

[polak]

Originally Posted by driveway

And how are you going to honour the 6,000 dead who did not volunteer, who did not die for King and Country, who did nothing other than be Native and be children?

Wear a poppy?

Probably the same way you do.

By not repeating those same atrocities and learning from past mistakes.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't take credit for the acts of others.

I don't sit there and pat myself on the back on remembrance day? I go and honor those that fought.

Conversely, I don't take blame for acts of others. I look back and learn from their mistakes.

damn, that dude just got served by polak. hard.

i think its terrible what happened to the natives. but the issue is a little more complicated than 'evil white people'. i think the memories of the victims is best served by abolishing the reserves and helping natives integrate into our society. if that costs a lot of money up front, so be it. the end result and benefit for everyone out weighs it.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by [B

CliffFletcher;5324730

Then there's the whole matter of reserves. I'd wager non-Native Canadians who live in isolated rural communities with low rates of school completion and high rates of substance abuse have very low incomes compared to the rest of Canada.[/B]

50 years from now we may very well look at the reserve system with the same dismay and disbelief that we regard the residential school system with

50 years from now? The reserve system and the Indian Act set up natives for failure from day 1. The problem is that most of the land that was set up as reserves for our natives was basically useless.

Yes, they have found some valuable natural resources on some of the reserves lately, but by and large, the land on reserves is useless. That is also compounded by the fact that many reserves lie in very isolated regions of Canada.

I grew up in Saskatchewan, 30 minutes north of Regina, and my Dad's farm bordered the northern edge of Piapot Reserve. This reserve takes in part of the Qu'Appelle Valley and encompasses the north and south sides of Qu'Appelle Valley as well as the bottom of the valley. Outside of perhaps a bit of cattle ranching and a few gravel pits, there is little else that can be done for industry on that reserve. The bottom of the valley does have some hay land but is not really suitable for grain farming as it is prone to flooding.

Now the land north and south of Qu'Appelle Valley, particularly south, is some of the richest grain growing land in Canada, part of the Regina Plains. However, the Piapot Reserve itself never got any of that rich farm land. Funny how that happened isn't it?

So tell me, how were the members of Piapot reserve supposed to end up as functioning members of our society when they were placed on a tract of land, that although it might be very scenic, is not able to support the members who live there?

Some of the things the natives are asking for in the 94 recommendations are symbolic...some are much more encompassing.There is no easy solution here and it will take huge amounts of conciliatory work from both sides before a solution is found. The sooner the bickering, blaming, and name calling ends, the sooner a solution will be found.

And although the 94 recommendations are aimed at our governments, in all actuality. some initiatives will have to come from the natives themselves. Solutions will only be found when initiatives come from both sides.

[polak]

Did we give them the land or did they choose the land?

I know that a lot of the residents of problematic reserve lands refuse to leave...

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Very difficult issues to deal with and I think the government should do a better job distilling the information contained within the report. I did review the recommendations, and while I appreciate the general tenor, I do think the recommendations are rather over-reaching. It feels like this is their recommended solution for all native problems, not just residential schools. Surely this should have been a more focused list of recommendations. Restore and increase funding to CBC? (#84)

[CaptainCrunch]

Hopefully this is a long overdue first step in looking for solutions. Up until now, its been a problem that no government has wanted to touch at all.

there are so many problems with the reserve lands and how they are funded that they are due to fail.

The natives deserve way better leadership from their Chiefs and their leaders. They deserve way better from the rest of Canada, hopefully we can start moving in this direction.

I personally don't know if the whole throwing money at the problem will ever solve it though.

[peter12]

I work with First Nations on behalf of major Canadian and American oil and gas lines. I suppose I am a consultant. I have conducted hundreds, maybe thousands, of intensive interviews with a whole range of individuals, from Chiefs to average joes.

There are several issues that I am probably uniquely able to personally understand in regards to First Nations, and their current plight in this country.

a) carefully-constructed ideological identity related to the rise of land claims in both the US and Canada, this identity has repeatedly been proven to have nothing to do with historical identity;

b) impregnable tribal leadership that benefits from a constant stream of public and private goods that they control absolutely;

c) poorly advanced or developed civil society - ie. no independent fiscal bodies to investigate how band funds are spent, no real free elections;

d) an ideological Supreme Court and governments too cowardly to act;

e) people like me, consultants and lawyers who benefit, and create the stream of revenue that maintains aboriginals in the cycle of poverty;

f) the collapse of the family - many reasons for this, and residential schools are only a small part of it. Certainly, many of the problems that I deal with as a tertiary element of my work are not at all traceable to residential schools.

For what it is worth, I think the TRC, like all public commissions, was hijacked by special interests to the extent that very little of what we read and see in this report is quantifiable or historically verified. Certainly, there are large traces of truth, but lots of this stuff is misdirection.

[Bownesian]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Restore and increase funding to CBC? (#84)

- Repeal the spanking law?
- Demand the Pope visit Canada within one year of issuing the report and apologize?
- Adopt the UN declarations on Rights of Indigenous Peoples which includes an effective legislative veto at all levels of government:

Article 19 - States shall consult and cooperate in good faith with the indigenous peoples concerned through their own representative institutions in order to obtain their free, prior and informed consent before adopting and implementing legislative or administrative measures that may affect them.

- There's lots of stuff there about land ownership that depending on interpretation could make lots of currently private and crown land default to native ownership

[CliffFletcher]

The fixation on land is tragic. Land mattered 100 years ago. Today, prosperity comes from skills. In the last few decades millions of people have moved to Canada with zero land in their pockets and become prosperous citizens.

First you get the skills. Then you get the money. Raising more generations on proceeds from rent will not fundamentally improve their lives. But we want to believe in Eden, in the viability of a primitive lifestyle on the land. Those days are gone, and they're never coming back. It's terribly sad, but it's also reality.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by peter12

I work with First Nations on behalf of major Canadian and American oil and gas lines. I suppose I am a consultant. I have conducted hundreds, maybe thousands, of intensive interviews with a whole range of individuals, from Chiefs to average joes.

There are several issues that I am probably uniquely able to personally understand in regards to First Nations, and their current plight in this country.

a) carefully-constructed ideological identity related to the rise of land claims in both the US and Canada, this identity has repeatedly been proven to have nothing to do with historical identity;

b) impregnable tribal leadership that benefits from a constant stream of public and private goods that they control absolutely;

c) poorly advanced or developed civil society - ie. no independent fiscal bodies to investigate how band funds are spent, no real free elections;

d) an ideological Supreme Court and governments too cowardly to act;

e) people like me, consultants and lawyers who benefit, and create the stream of revenue that maintains aboriginals in the cycle of poverty;

f) the collapse of the family - many reasons for this, and residential schools are only a small part of it. Certainly, many of the problems that I deal with as a tertiary element of my work are not at all traceable to residential schools.

For what it is worth, I think the TRC, like all public commissions, was hijacked by special interests to the extent that very little of what we read and see in this report is quantifiable or historically verified. Certainly, there are large traces of truth, but lots of this stuff is misdirection.

Excellent post. This has been my experience as well in my limited business interaction with First Nations.

Remembering and reflecting on the commission findings are absolutely the right thing to do. This includes education and proper keeping of historic records for future generations. Calling for immediate and decisive actions to address the findings of the commission is ill-advised and ill-conceived. Unfortunately, those sharing the OP's views forget the very sad reality of the Canadian aboriginal governance. Loud intellectual public shaming and guilt has only one intended consequence - lawsuits resulting in retributions, compensations, fines and judgements. But the payouts will come from the pockets of those who didn't commit any offenses (taxpayers) and will only enrich the aboriginal power families in each band, while our own Government would have little to no influence on the cashflow distribution (it would be their money to handle and manage).

Canadian history is full of shameful examples of racial discrimination, corruption, abuse, harassment and other sins that are unacceptable by modern standards of our society. They all need to be acknowledged and recorded. But stop there and limit further action to a public apology.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

i think the memories of the victims is best served by abolishing the reserves and helping natives integrate into our society

Here's the problem though....helping first nations integrate into our society is exactly the logic that led to residential schools.

Frankly, a lot of FN don't want to integrate into society. They may want to participate in it, but they want to keep their own customs and beliefs alive and well.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

Here's the problem though....helping first nations integrate into our society is exactly the logic that led to residential schools.

Frankly, a lot of FN don't want to integrate into society. They may want to participate in it, but they want to keep their own customs and beliefs alive and well.

The problem is they want the nice material things our society has to offer, without being a part of it. And they want to do it while living in isolated rural communities that offer little economic opportunity. The desires of material comfort and independent isolation are incompatible.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

Here's the problem though....helping first nations integrate into our society is exactly the logic that led to residential schools.

Frankly, a lot of FN don't want to integrate into society. They may want to participate in it, but they want to keep their own customs and beliefs alive and well.

Fair enough, but I think at some point its going to have to happen.

Canada is not a melting pot society, we see people of different religions, beliefs and up bringing's coming to this country and living within society while being able to practice what they believe in.

I do have a problem with segregated communities I do think it leads to societal splits, and this leads to accusations of racism and keeps people from integrating into the country as a whole.

But I do strongly believe that the reserve system is doing more for cultural genocide of the first nations then anything that the government is doing at this point.

And a big part of that in my mind is in the leadership in the FN's group and the inability to actively own property.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But I do strongly believe that the reserve system is doing more for cultural genocide of the first nations then anything that the government is doing at this point.

Honest question:

Isn't it the government operating the Reserve system through the Indian Act?

[CaptainCrunch]

Yes, but I firmly believe that the Federal Government would rather that the reserve system goes away, its the NY subway of government departments, you touch it (third rail) and you die.

I also firmly believe that the leadership of the FN would rather have the reserve system remain because it gives them firm control over vast tracts of land and the cash that the government pays into the reserve system. They would also rather that the government have no control over the reserve system and the chiefs, they want a system where the government frankly writes them blank checks to do as they wish.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yes, but I firmly believe that the Federal Government would rather that the reserve system goes away, its the NY subway of government departments, you touch it (third rail) and you die.

I also firmly believe that the leadership of the FN would rather have the reserve system remain because it gives them firm control over vast tracts of land and the cash that the government pays into the reserve system. They would also rather that the government have no control over the reserve system and the chiefs, they want a system where the government frankly writes them blank checks to do as they wish.

Absolutely. The greatest beneficiaries of the reserve system are band leaders, who run them like private third-world fiefdoms. They're a huge headache for the Canadian government, that has very little say over what happens on reserves these days, but which is still held responsible for any bad outcomes.