[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I disagree there. If it doesn't work with Vancouver, Sven will probably follow the path of Erixon - going from organization to organization, but always getting looks in the NHL. His raw tools are enough to keep him in the picture even if he never quite figures it all out.

Oh I'm not saying he'd quit hockey or even be shunned by GM's but this is his one shot to reset his career, he makes it work in Vancouver and it's the Flames fault and he's a 4 to 5 mill top six 1st rounder again. He fails at Vancouver he's the problem and will pretty well always be seen as a lower depth role player.

[flames_fan_down_under]

I look at players like Tyler Toffoli who basically forced L.A. to put him in the line up. His first season in the AHL he got 28 goals and 51 points in 58 games, the next season he had 15 goals in his first 18 games in the AHL, that is someone who gave L.A. basically no choice but to bring him up the NHL. Sven just never delivered those kind of numbers and forced the Flames hand.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I look at players like Tyler Toffoli who basically forced L.A. to put him in the line up. His first season in the AHL he got 28 goals and 51 points in 58 games, the next season he had 15 goals in his first 18 games in the AHL, that is someone who gave L.A. basically no choice but to bring him up the NHL. Sven just never delivered those kind of numbers and forced the Flames hand.

well not everybody is the same and reacts the same

makes me kind of wonder though.... i thought a big part of Feaster's innovative drafting was to set a mandate to draft based upon character.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

well not everybody is the same and reacts the same

makes me kind of wonder though.... i thought a big part of Feaster's innovative drafting was to set a mandate to draft based upon character.

This has nothing to do with Sven's character, skillset or work ethic.

He had/has a problem between the ears with confidence. Unable to work his way out of it, he seems to have come to the conclusion that a fresh start is what is needed. We've all been there in life, whether it be in a relationship, a job, a social circle, a team...sometimes you just can't find the traction you need to get going.

I wish Sven all the best, but I wish nothing but the greatest failures on the organization he is now a part of.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by savardandjokinen

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/3/3/when...sven-baertschi

No mention of Craig Conroy airing the same criticisms that Burke did on 960 after he was sent down.

[Phanuthier]

sorry i should have gone into more detail

I was listening to a old(er) interview with Duhatchuk on similarities between Sven and Nino (with NYI) and how they view that they should prove themself after being given the job, rather then working their way up through the ranks... I imagine that would be the "character" thing.....its easy for me to say since I don't need the forsight to say this, but Sven's game is really about confidence and doesn't exactly thrive in the "beat you down and prove that you can work your way back up" mantra.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by savardandjokinen

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/3/3/when...sven-baertschi

Not a fan of this article, especially once it got to comparing Monahan vs Sven and why Monahan stayed when Sven went. Seemed to base the argument purely on the points they were/weren't getting to show that Monahan was coddled while Sven did at least as well but was sent down.

This shows a lack of understanding of what coaching's criteria is for remaining in the lineup. Hint: Scoring matters little compared to effort and 2-way play.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

You're kidding yourself if you don't think scoring goals keeps you in the lineup.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Not a fan of this article, especially once it got to comparing Monahan vs Sven and why Monahan stayed when Sven went. Seemed to base the argument purely on the points they were/weren't getting to show that Monahan was coddled while Sven did at least as well but was sent down.

This shows a lack of understanding of what coaching's criteria is for remaining in the lineup. Hint: Scoring matters little compared to effort and 2-way play.

Agreed. A couple of the things Monahan was praised on was his coachability and maturity. That is what kept him in the line-up. He was able to accept criticisms and dealt with it. He never stopped working even during the slumps.

Baertschi was pretty much useless without the puck. He just doesn't do the little things that end up mattering in the bigger picture. With Monahan, you could at least count on him to make the smart, albeit less stunning decision on the ice.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

You're kidding yourself if you don't think scoring goals keeps you in the lineup.

If you aren't playing good two way hockey though you need to be scoring a lot. A goal here and there isn't going to cut it.

[Calgary4LIfe]

The Glencross vs Baertschi threads aren't at all surprising. Everyone here expected Glencross to be moved out, and even his most ardent supporters knew that he just didn't fit the long-term plans anyways. There isn't really much to discuss one way or the other, and there weren't any real arguments around him post-trade. Baertschi was seen as the future, and although he was no longer seen as the 'savior' with Monahan, Gaudreau and Bennett, he was looked upon as a long-term piece of the solution for the future. Not only was it a surprise, but there exists a huge division amongst the fan base as to who Baertschi is. Glencross was scrutinized for a long time, and regardless of the division amongst the fan base, both sides would be surprised to see Glencross retained and/or re-signed.

As for Baertschi and his success of failure, I wish neither upon him. He is just a prospect for another organization - and a rival one. I personally never hope for injuries or other avenues to have some kid's future stolen from him. I wish neither good nor bad luck on him.

What I do think is that Baertschi is completely aware that once you play the 'I will not re-sign with you' card, he better do whatever it takes to make it work in the next organization. I would say the majority on this site view Baertschi at the moment as a bit of a pouter. Some take his side and back the Flames. If this happens again, there will not be a doubt, and he will not be proving the Flames wrong. There is huge pressure on him to succeed now - pressure that has in the last year decreased significantly from the organization and the fan base. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. I really have my doubts that Baertschi can play full-time for a team that is not rebuilding next season, but I won't completely write it off either.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

You're kidding yourself if you don't think scoring goals keeps you in the lineup.

It can certainly help, but unless your scoring like Ovechkin, it rarely makes up for noticeable deficiencies elsewhere. Saying "Look! Sven had as many points in these games as Sean did and then when they both dropped off Sven went down while Monahan stayed. Sven was therefore treated poorly." Isolates scoring as the only reason either of them were being kept in the first place. It's not the only reason and Monahan excels at many other parts of the game where Sven doesn't. That's why he was kept and Sven wasn't. Not to mention they play different positions.

[Gaudfather]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

... I imagine that would be the "character" thing.....its easy for me to say since I don't need the forsight to say this, but Sven's game is really about confidence and doesn't exactly thrive in the "beat you down and prove that you can work your way back up" mantra.

The beatings will continue until the morale improves! (you mean this doesn't work for Gen X'ers?)

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Not a fan of this article, especially once it got to comparing Monahan vs Sven and why Monahan stayed when Sven went. Seemed to base the argument purely on the points they were/weren't getting to show that Monahan was coddled while Sven did at least as well but was sent down.

This shows a lack of understanding of what coaching's criteria is for remaining in the lineup. Hint: Scoring matters little compared to effort and 2-way play.

Exactly! That article just really glossed over (or didn't include) any reasoning as to why Baertschi was scratched/demoted. Didn't go on to say that every other prospect since was scratched/demoted for not performing, and making it appear that Baertschi was some kind of a martyr.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If you aren't playing good two way hockey though you need to be scoring a lot. A goal here and there isn't going to cut it.

Especially if your talent is scoring goals.

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Especially if you're talent is scoring goals.

To be fair, he isn't a "goal scorer".

He has been more of a play maker at every level of hockey since he played in the WHL. He's more of an assist machine than a goal scorer.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by RyZ

To be fair, he isn't a "goal scorer".

He has been more of a play maker at every level of hockey since he played in the WHL. He's more of an assist machine than a goal scorer.

Well, whatever his talents, he wasn't displaying them much in either pro league.

Some flashes in his time in Calgary with a whole bunch of meh in between.

[heep223]

Sven's PPG in the AHL is 0.73, and has trended down every single year.
Sven's PPG in the NHL is 0.42, and has trended down every single year.

If his only game is producing offense, which it is, I don't want a guy given a long term spot in our top 6 who's going to produce 32 points/year (and again trending in wrong direction in either league). In fact the Flames gave him a very good chance. They noticed his production trends and told him to learn a 200 ft game if he wants to play on the team. They were very patient with him about it. He didn't learn.

Guys like Jooris, Bouma can chip in offensively and get a hot hand every so often but they are energy guys, great skaters, blocking shots, hitting, giving their entire body to the cause. They put their head down and give it their all every single second. Sven is not that. If he's not producing he's useless. Move on.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I look at players like Tyler Toffoli who basically forced L.A. to put him in the line up. His first season in the AHL he got 28 goals and 51 points in 58 games, the next season he had 15 goals in his first 18 games in the AHL, that is someone who gave L.A. basically no choice but to bring him up the NHL. Sven just never delivered those kind of numbers and forced the Flames hand.

Toffoli drafted 47th overall. This pick could be around the same spot. Sure would be nice.

[AcGold]

I'm glad we got something for him. Whether he flourishes or not doesn't matter. It wasn't working here and we got atleast some return. Smart asset management. Sven's future is irrelevant to us now. 30 goal scorer or KHL bound it doesn't matter, what matters is whether the 2nd round pick is an NHLer or not.