Man stabbed, then decapitated on grey hound bus

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

i would argue that pedophiles and molesters are sick in the head as well

That may be your argument, and they may very well be, but they do not have the clinical definition of a mental illness. Their condition is not caused by chemical imbalances in their brains that are beyond their control. In some cases a pedophile might also have a mental illness, but there is nothing to suggest that the two are related.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

obviously not the dead victims but families, you don't think its punishment watching your family members' killers walk free?

I think punishment is the wrong word, and so is victimizing. I think the victims' families may feel unsatisfied, but I don't see how it's punishing to them. And really I don't think an evolved society should be basing it's justice system around satisfying the blood lust of victims or their families because that's a pretty dark path to go down.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by rubecube

That may be your argument, and they may very well be, but they do not have the clinical definition of a mental illness. Their condition is not caused by chemical imbalances in their brains that are beyond their control. In some cases a pedophile might also have a mental illness, but there is nothing to suggest that the two are related.

Pedophilia is considered a mental illness.

[rubecube]

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[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Pedophilia is considered a mental illness.

You're right. My bad. I still think your original post, lumping in murderers, was pretty ignorant and trivializing of mental illness in general. I also don't think you can compare pedophilia to schizophrenia because pedophiles are generally cognizant of the fact that what they're doing is wrong or at least illegal. That and the recidivism rate among child abusers is a lot higher than it is among people who commit murder during a schizophrenic episode.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yes, because the system isn't continuing to punish him for a disease he didn't choose to have and a crime he didn't choose to commit.

Well you go tell that to the family of the victim and the first responders that have been dropping like flies in the fall out of dealing with this incredibly disturbing incident. Did they chose to be decapitated or have to clean up that crime scene? Like it or not, someone has to be held accountable and cutting this guy loose with next to no strings attached is a definite failure of the system.

I have no doubt he is a perfectly rational person while medicated. All it takes is a few stressor's to start entering back into this guys life and you've got a ticking time bomb that has a track record of lashing out in a heinous manner.

[Dion]

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[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Well you go tell that to the family of the victim and the first responders that have been dropping like flies in the fall out of dealing with this incredibly disturbing incident. Did they chose to be decapitated or have to clean up that crime scene? Like it or not, someone has to be held accountable and cutting this guy loose with next to no strings attached is a definite failure of the system.

And how is keeping someone with an illness that caused him to commit the crime holding him accountable. Accountability is supposed to come with the territory of something you were responsible or had control over, which Li clearly didn't. So what you're actually asking for is retribution and a pound of flesh. Is that honestly how you want the justice to work? What exactly does that solve? How would keeping him in jail longer eased the family's or first-responders' traumas?

I have no doubt he is a perfectly rational person while medicated. All it takes is a few stressor's to start entering back into this guys life and you've got a ticking time bomb that has a track record of lashing out in a heinous manner.

And what exactly makes you more qualified to make this claim than the team of professionals assigned to his case?

[Flames_Gimp]

if Li was put down it might ease the victims minds with some closure at the very least!

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

if Li was put down it might ease the victims minds with some closure at the very least!

Fortunately, we don't live in a society where the victims get to pick the punishment.

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Like it or not, someone has to be held accountable

But we don't. Li was found not criminally responsible for his actions. The law has differentiated for hundreds of years the difference between a sane person of sound mind and someone with a mental disorder.

Other than the emotional aspect of the gruesome incident, I don't know if there's a reason to punish this man for life. He was found not criminally responsible because he was having a psychotic episode where he thought God was telling him to kill an evil alien. Again, he thought God told him to kill an alien. He was sent to the provincial psychiatric facility, not as a punishment for a crime but for public safety. Now it appears the trained professionals do not see him as a threat to public safety and want to gradually reintroduce him to society (moreso than what has already taken place). It becomes hard to argue that he should remain locked up if he was locked up for public safety and the experts no longer believe he is a safety risk.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

if Li was put down it might ease the victims minds with some closure at the very least!

How so?

[speede5]

Would it be reasonable to say that someone like this is not responsible for his actions in the state he was in, but since medication work it is his responsibility to take it? What I mean is that were he to stop taking meds on his own and reoffend you could throw the book at him because he stopped taking his meds? There has to be some level of ownership by Li.

I have seen mental illness and it is not pretty, and you can't punish someone for being sick. Once the cause is known to the person though, they have a responsibility. Kind of like being drunk behind the wheel. When you are drunk you really aren't in control of your actions but since you are the one who made yourself drunk you are held responsible for the consequences.

[cracher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

And what exactly makes you more qualified to make this claim than the team of professionals assigned to his case?

This.

We all trust specialists in every aspect of life. The Audi engineer who makes sure your car doesn't explode, the $20/h Coop butcher who doesn't salmonella-ize you, the ledcor foreman who keeps your 15th floor office at the 15th floor.

I don't get why people are so ready to second guess the specialists on Li's case, should they green-light his release. They know the details, they know the risks. There will always be screw-ups, but screw-ups exist in every other aspect of life too.

[CaptainCrunch]

I guess I want to go back, because I haven't been in this thread for a while, and I want to address the question that somebody asked me about victim rights and the mental health aspect of it.

The question is how can we afford closure for the family of the victim, they're important in this equation as well. As it stands, I don't think that there's even been an explanation to the family on anything, they're dependent on the media to give them the information, I think whether its the prison system or the mental health system they have a right to be communicated to directly instead of getting the shock that their sons brutal killer is just being released on un-supervised leaves.

Part of the issue here is that they have to feel that their son has value in this whole equation as well. There has to be some care to the families mental state to.

Its the same with the parole system.

As for the unsupervised leave, I can't dispute mental health professionals, my expertise lies in software. We do need to reflect some aspect of public safety and trust in the system into this equation as well, and if the thin line for Li is medication there has to be a 100% chance that he's not going to go off of his meds ever, and that he's monitored for adverse reactions to the meds forever.

I don't want to get into the whole pedo versus schizophrenia because I don't think that they're at all compatible and the public safety aspect is far far different.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Fortunately, we don't live in a society where the victims get to pick the punishment.

But we don't. Li was found not criminally responsible for his actions. The law has differentiated for hundreds of years the difference between a sane person of sound mind and someone with a mental disorder.

Other than the emotional aspect of the gruesome incident, I don't know if there's a reason to punish this man for life. He was found not criminally responsible because he was having a psychotic episode where he thought God was telling him to kill an evil alien. Again, he thought God told him to kill an alien. He was sent to the provincial psychiatric facility, not as a punishment for a crime but for public safety. Now it appears the trained professionals do not see him as a threat to public safety and want to gradually reintroduce him to society (moreso than what has already taken place). It becomes hard to argue that he should remain locked up if he was locked up for public safety and the experts no longer believe he is a safety risk.

I was going to post something similar. The law is pretty clear on this stuff. If you're not criminally responsible because of a mental disorder, then you're not criminally responsible, whether the crime is shoplifting or setting a bus load of school children on fire. That's how common law systems usually work (not a lawyer but that's my semi-educated understanding). You don't get to pick and choose which parts of the law you want to apply and when.

What I see people advocating for here, or what I'm inferring they're advocating for is a criminal justice system where judges/juries can hand out sentences based on their own discretion, either that or basic frontier justice. Either way, you end up with a pretty chaotic and nonsensical standard of justice.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

How so?

Because the debate (which I suspect will go on forever) on wether he's released and a risk etc will be over. And the media will stop talking about him, how can the families move on if the debate continues.

I hope Tim macleans family doesn't read this thread, the support for the killers well being in here is crazy.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

I hope Tim macleans family doesn't read this thread, the support for the killers well being in here is crazy.

How do you know their mindset aligns with yours? Pretty arrogant statement. Who are you to say they don't feel compassion for him, despite what happened to their son. You have no idea, you're assuming they think exactly like you. Are they for the death penalty? How would that ease their minds if they're against it?

[Flames_Gimp]

Even if they don't have the same beliefs as me you would think they would be bothered by the support for the killer when their sons name isn't even mentioned.

And you're right I'm only speculating on the family's thoughts (in a thread full of speculation)

[Flames_Gimp]

But I'm done with the debate I know where the majority stands and you all know where I stand, well sit.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

Because the debate (which I suspect will go on forever) on wether he's released and a risk etc will be over. And the media will stop talking about him, how can the families move on if the debate continues.

I hope Tim macleans family doesn't read this thread, the support for the killers well being in here is crazy.

McLean............if you are going to to hide behind the well being of the family at least get their name correct.