Alberta PST discussion

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

He can legislate changes to the contract. It's a pretty aggressive strategy (and his public opinion will suffer for it), but he can do it.

I don't think he can legislate changes to a contract that was negotiated in good faith, is legally binding and was agreed to by both sides.

[GP_Matt]

It sounds like he will have a hard time forcing open the contract. He could threaten jobs though. If he provides a reduced budget to each department they will have to cut staff to meet the budget. The union may want to open negotiations to avoid that.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by darklord700

If you looked at the recent poll, almost 75% of responders panned PST. It is not politically viable.

Did anyone expect a tax hike poll to come back supportive. No one wants it, but they might accept if it is presented with options.

Maybe the poll should be something like pick your top three methods for avoiding debt.

Reduce health care spending and close facilities
Close schools and increase class sizes
Raise income taxes
Introduce a PST
Stop highway maintenance and construction
Other unpalatable option

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

Did anyone expect a tax hike poll to come back supportive. No one wants it, but they might accept if it is presented with options.

Maybe the poll should be something like pick your top three methods for avoiding debt.

Reduce health care spending and close facilities
Close schools and increase class sizes
Raise income taxes
Introduce a PST
Stop highway maintenance and construction
Other unpalatable option

Where's the option for "Cut waste, find efficiencies, and trim the fat"?

[Flamenspiel]

^^5% wage cut for all public sector employees including all MPs and the Premier. This was mentioned in today's National Post.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

^^5% wage cut for all public sector employees including all MPs and the Premier. This was mentioned in today's National Post.

Didn't Klein do it back then?

[Fire]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

Did anyone expect a tax hike poll to come back supportive. No one wants it, but they might accept if it is presented with options.

If the polled asked about a progressive tax where people who made over $100k paid more tax I bet you get a lot of support.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Fire

If the polled asked about a progressive tax where people who made over $100k paid more tax I bet you get a lot of support.

EDMONTON — Sixty per cent of Albertans surveyed by a University of Alberta think-tank support a return to a progressive tax system — meaning the more money you make, the more taxes you pay.

The Parkland Institute released a report Thursday that suggested a “progressive” income tax that taxes wealthy Albertans at a higher rate has “considerable support” from taxpayers.

“I think people are coming to understand that the wealth in this province is distributed in a drastically unequal manner and that’s a problem,” said Shannon Stunden Bower with the Parkland Institute.

“This is a problem not only for the 99% or the 90%, the people at the lower end of things, but also for those who are wealthy. There is strong data coming out indicating that income inequality hurts everybody.”

Alberta’s fiscal outlook has been gloomy in the months leading up to the provincial budget, to be released March 7, with a project deficit as high as $4 billion.

But the report says Albertans are prepared to adjust to higher taxes if it means a stronger financial footing.

Raising the Alberta corporate tax rate to 12%, up from the current 10%, would bring in another $840 million each year.

Adopting a progressive flat tax regime for personal income tax would bring in up to $13.6 billion in additional revenue for the province, notes the report.

The report also suggests the adoption of a sales tax would actually aggravate the problem of inequality even further.

“Our problem is over-reliance on volatile resource revenues rather than stable and predictable tax revenue,” Stunden Bower said.

“Inequality would be made even worse by the adoption of a sales tax or by maintaining the flat tax. Governments the world over have figured this out, but somehow Alberta has not.”

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...28-170900.html

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Fire

If the polled asked about a progressive tax where people who made over $100k paid more tax I bet you get a lot of support.

I think you would find that most people would support higher taxes for anyone who makes more than they do.

Edit: I don't have a problem with changing the flat tax.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Where's the option for "Cut waste, find efficiencies, and trim the fat"?

That sounds nice, but why do we assume there is always more fat to cut with the government? I doubt they're 100 per cent efficient. But neither is the private sector (and anyone who says otherwise has probably never worked at a big company in the private sector). Suncore didn't look for a 15 per cent reduction in operating costs through efficiency - they laid 1000 people off. Prentice commented the other day that Alberta could lay off every public servant who doesn't work in health care and they still wouldn't balance the budget this year.

This is why we don't have rational handling of public finances - few voters want to act like adults and recognize the tradeoffs. Everyone thinks they can still get everything they want without paying because someone else will take the hit.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Prentice commented the other day that Alberta could lay off every public servant who doesn't work in health care and they still wouldn't balance the budget this year.

Doesn't this just show how bloated and inefficient our health care is?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Doesn't this just show how bloated and inefficient our health care is?

I'd tend to think it shows how long Alberta has relied on oil and gas to cover the basic costs of government that other provinces have to raise taxes for from the average joe taxpayer.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I'd tend to think it shows how long Alberta has relied on oil and gas to cover the basic costs of government that other provinces have to raise taxes for from the average joe taxpayer.

So don't rely on the unreliable O&G revenues. Distribute it back to all Albertans whether it's high or low and then you can have your PST. The PC is trying to have it both ways now.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Oil and Gas royalties are from an non-renewable resource (that will likely be obsolete or uneconomic long before supply runs out)...

The best thing you could do is create a savings fund from O&G royalties and use it to smooth out volatility in the economy and invest in diversifying the economy.

Income tax evolution and the introduction of a sales tax may not be popular (what tax is popular?) but the money has to come from somewhere.

Government inefficiencies are somewhat inevitable (Government programs lack a direct feedback mechanism, like the market, to kill under performers. Dumb policies can live on much longer than they should).

Nevertheless, trimming the fat in the Government can do more harm than good if it is done carelessly and kills good economic diversification projects that took a lot of investment to get inertia but need time to bear fruit (e.g. investment in Science).

The sooner Albertan's focus on building the next economy and managing O&G like its a limited time offer (because it sure is) the better.

If that means new taxes on those most able to afford it, introducing the lowest PST in Canada, and getting the Heritage Fund back on track I am all for it.

If people think that cutting Government services is a simple, sufficient and easy way to get through this crises and put the economy on track for long term success...I respectfully disagree.

[Azure]

I don't think you can make the health care system operate more efficiently without actually looking at Alberta and Federal health laws and changing them to make the system more efficient. Maybe after that you would save money.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't think you can make the health care system operate more efficiently without actually looking at Alberta and Federal health laws and changing them to make the system more efficient. Maybe after that you would save money.

AHS is structurally resistant to innovation...it's a significant problem.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

EDMONTON — Sixty per cent of Albertans surveyed by a University of Alberta think-tank support a return to a progressive tax system — meaning the more money you make, the more taxes you pay.

The Parkland Institute released a report Thursday that suggested a “progressive” income tax that taxes wealthy Albertans at a higher rate has “considerable support” from taxpayers.

“I think people are coming to understand that the wealth in this province is distributed in a drastically unequal manner and that’s a problem,” said Shannon Stunden Bower with the Parkland Institute.

“This is a problem not only for the 99% or the 90%, the people at the lower end of things, but also for those who are wealthy. There is strong data coming out indicating that income inequality hurts everybody.”

Alberta’s fiscal outlook has been gloomy in the months leading up to the provincial budget, to be released March 7, with a project deficit as high as $4 billion.

But the report says Albertans are prepared to adjust to higher taxes if it means a stronger financial footing.

Raising the Alberta corporate tax rate to 12%, up from the current 10%, would bring in another $840 million each year.

Adopting a progressive flat tax regime for personal income tax would bring in up to $13.6 billion in additional revenue for the province, notes the report.

The report also suggests the adoption of a sales tax would actually aggravate the problem of inequality even further.

“Our problem is over-reliance on volatile resource revenues rather than stable and predictable tax revenue,” Stunden Bower said.

“Inequality would be made even worse by the adoption of a sales tax or by maintaining the flat tax. Governments the world over have figured this out, but somehow Alberta has not.”

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...28-170900.html

THIS bears repeating since nobody has commented on Flash's post..

I would say, however that Alberta should forget about raising the corporate income tax from 10% to 12% as it would only result in a net gain of $850 million and could possibly hurt Alberta and its "Alberta Advantage"

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Rerun

THIS bears repeating since nobody has commented on Flash's post..

I would say, however that Alberta should forget about raising the corporate income tax from 10% to 12% as it would only result in a net gain of $850 million and could possibly hurt Alberta and its "Alberta Advantage"

Only 850 million more? That is a huge number, especially if it is properly invested in the province. Are you suggesting that businesses would flee Alberta based upon a two percent tax increase?

[Antithesis]

Wow, I'd love to live in a world where I found it appropriate to use the term 'only' in front of $850 million.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Only 850 million more? That is a huge number, especially if it is properly invested in the province. Are you suggesting that businesses would flee Alberta based upon a two percent tax increase?

Well since the deficit for 2015 is forecast at $6.2 Billion and adopting a progressive flat tax regime for personal income tax would bring in up to $13.6 billion in additional revenue for the province, I really don't see the point in raising the corporate tax rate from 10% to 12%, particularly since we are competing against other provinces, such as Ontario, who also have a 10% rate.

Business's may not flee but I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that attracting new business might become more difficult.