Police shooting of unarmed teen leads to protests and Riot

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by PIMking

So witness for cop lied and is a known moron and its a huge deal, main witness for brown lied and known criminal and its no biggie?

Its almost as though it would have been helpful to have the apparently conflicting, potentially not credible evidence of these witnesses tested through cross-examination in an adversarial proceeding in front of a jury or judge to try to determine what really happened.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Its almost as though it would have been helpful to have the apparently conflicting, potentially not credible evidence of these witness tested through cross-examination in an adversarial proceeding in front of a jury or judge to try to determine what really happened.

No, we can't have that. We would risk having justice that way.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by PIMking

So witness for cop lied and is a known moron and its a huge deal, main witness for brown lied and known criminal and its no biggie?

Either way police need to stop shooting people. I've been watch COPS on tv lately and just shocked on how they treat people when they know the camera is on them.

To be fair, it seems a number of witnesses were less than truthful with their evidence at the grand jury proceeding.

But not all "lies" are equal and some are more harmful than others. Here it appears someone avoided legal scrutiny of his potentially illegal conduct on the basis of false testimony. That false testimony wasn't simply a mistake or misdirect about what was that witness saw. Rather, it was completely fabricated evidence - a total fiction - put forth by an explicitly racist individual. The grand jury process is flawed, no doubt, and its use here is suspicious. But if this is the kind of testimony that was provided at the grand jury proceeding, why even bother with it at all?

[PIMking]

The more that comes out the more this looks terrible.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Given that the Marcus Jeter and the Tamir Rice incidents haven't made US society budge an inch on police brutality, I'm rather certain nothing will.

It's sad and frightening.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Given that the Marcus Jeter and the Tamir Rice incidents haven't made US society budge an inch on police brutality, I'm rather certain nothing will.

It's sad and frightening.

That country has proven over and over that every abuse of power that happens at any level just simply becomes the new normal. It's tough to watch.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by flameswin

That country has proven over and over that every abuse of power that happens at any level just simply becomes the new normal. It's tough to watch.

There's no recourse for the citizens, unfortunately.

Canada is migrating in the same direction.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Given that the Marcus Jeter and the Tamir Rice incidents haven't made US society budge an inch on police brutality, I'm rather certain nothing will.

It's sad and frightening.

This is starting to garner attention.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/16/justic...html?hpt=hp_t2

n the interrogation video, which was first posted on The Guardian's website on Sunday, a police detective repeatedly presses Crawford's tearful girlfriend, asking her where Crawford got the gun he had in the store.

"You understand that we're investigating a serious incident," Detective Rodney Curd says. "You lie to me and you might be on your way to jail."
"I swear to God, on my job, my family, on everything I love," Tasha Thomas replies, telling the detective repeatedly that she never saw Crawford with a weapon and that she'll take a polygraph test to prove it.

As she cries, the detective appears unconvinced.

"Why would he have a gun in the store?" he asks.
"I don't know," she replies.
"Did he carry a gun?" the detective continues.
"Not that I. ... I've never known him to have a gun," she says.

Her response appears to upset the detective.

"Don't tell me, 'not that you know,' because that's the first thing that I realize that somebody's not telling me the truth, when they say that kind of stuff," Curd says.

At one point in the video, Thomas sobs as she buries her head in her hands.
The detective says he'll write down her testimony but then asks whether she's under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

"Your eyes are kind of messed up looking and you seem a little lethargic at times," he says, "and I don't know if it's because you're upset or not. I just want to make sure what's going on."

It's not until the end of the 90-minute interrogation that Thomas learns her boyfriend has died.

"Well, to let you know, John has passed away as a result of this," the detective says.

Thomas sinks back in her chair and puts her hands on her head.

"I don't know any other way to tell you," Curd says. "What happened there wasn't a good thing and as a result of his actions, he is gone.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This is starting to garner attention.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/16/justic...html?hpt=hp_t2

Thus pisses me the #### off!!!! Like #### that cop. This is bull####. This state has a open carry law. Until after they shot him he could of legally been able to carry this item. They never tried to find out. How ####ty would it look if he did have a license after all this. Where the #### is the NRA ? open carry state and a guy gets gunned down with out a second notice. They should be all over this. Wait he was black? Ah #### it they say. Shoot first ask questions later. The DA and your Union got your back. How disgusting America has become.

12 seconds after they reached the store he was gunned down!!! If he had carried a large rifle into the store security cams or greeters would have seen it. Did security cams not capture that he took the gun off the self? #### these particular cops (not all. Just these ones). You had time to cover your ass. You know instead of just coming around a corner and opening fire.


Remember when cops would say " ( insert city) police department freeze!!!". " Drop the weapon and put your hands in the air!" No Its we now shot you and everyone else around needs to just shut your mouth and bow your heads or we will make your life hell.


The New age America .

Shut your ####ing mouths, do what we say and you will be lucky enough to live another day.

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Thus pisses me the #### off!!!! Like #### that cop. This is bull####. This state has a open carry law. Until after they shot him he could of legally been able to carry this item. They never tried to find out. How ####ty would it look if he did have a license after all this. Where the #### is the NRA ? open carry state and a guy gets gunned down with out a second notice. They should be all over this. Wait he was black? Ah #### it they say. Shoot first ask questions later. The DA and your Union got your back. How disgusting America has become.

12 seconds after they reached the store he was gunned down!!! If he had carried a large rifle into the store security cams or greeters would have seen it. Did security cams not capture that he took the gun off the self? #### these particular cops (not all. Just these ones). You had time to cover your ass. You know instead of just coming around a corner and opening fire.


Remember when cops would say " ( insert city) police department freeze!!!". " Drop the weapon and put your hands in the air!" No Its we now shot you and everyone else around needs to just shut your mouth and bow your heads or we will make your life hell.


The New age America .

Shut your ####ing mouths, do what we say and you will be lucky enough to live another day.

Just out of curiousity, did you listen to the 911 call?

I doubt it'll change your viewpoint, but I am curious, if you were a cop in that situation, relying on the information provided to you from the dispatcher (from the 911 caller), how would you react?

If you yelled, as you state, "freeze" and he didn't comply would you then pull the trigger? How long would you give him to comply? How many "freeze" would you give him? What if he walked away? Would you wait for the gun barrel to come up ever so slightly? Or would you wait until he was pointing it?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Just out of curiousity, did you listen to the 911 call?

I doubt it'll change your viewpoint, but I am curious, if you were a cop in that situation, relying on the information provided to you from the dispatcher (from the 911 caller), how would you react?

If you yelled, as you state, "freeze" and he didn't comply would you then pull the trigger? How long would you give him to comply? How many "freeze" would you give him? What if he walked away? Would you wait for the gun barrel to come up ever so slightly? Or would you wait until he was pointing it?

Going by the video (and this story), the gun was on the ground when he was shot the second time.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...rawford-police

Anyway, why would the officer interrogating the dead guy's girlfriend keep asking her about where he got the "gun"? Wouldn't it have been obvious by then that he never actually had a real gun?

That's the real dodgy part about the latest news on this one. Sure, you can make a case that the officers legitimately shot the guy because they believed he was holding a rifle in the Wal-Mart, but after the fact (when he's dead, and there isn't actually a gun) why the belligerent interrogation and flippant "he's dead" routine with the girlfriend? Is there some way that officer couldn't have known that it was a toy gun?

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Just out of curiousity, did you listen to the 911 call?

I doubt it'll change your viewpoint, but I am curious, if you were a cop in that situation, relying on the information provided to you from the dispatcher (from the 911 caller), how would you react?

If you yelled, as you state, "freeze" and he didn't comply would you then pull the trigger? How long would you give him to comply? How many "freeze" would you give him? What if he walked away? Would you wait for the gun barrel to come up ever so slightly? Or would you wait until he was pointing it?

Its an open carry state!!! Give him at least 1 freeze!! I have followed this since day one. If eye witness statements can not be trusted then why should the 911 call be considered word of law?? They came around the corner and fired instantly without hesitation. I may not be a cop but I went through 6 years of military school (6-12) and 3 years of service 18-21. I would have I.d. my self 4 or five rows back. I would have waited and gave out orders. " blank police department. We received a 911 call throw down your weapon and reveal yourself with your hands behind your back with your back facing us. Failure to comply will be met with deadly force. You have 30 seconds to decide." At least a ####ing warning. 911 description calls come directly from an eye witness. How can one say " well the eye witness was not reliable but the 911 dispatcher is".


Was the dispatcher there? No. Maybe a little discretion on the officers part would be nice.

This is an open carry state!!! For all they knew he was a legal holder. He was black that's it. There is no other reason. This year a Caucasian guy that was drunk threatening random people on the street with a small armsweapon and you know what happened? the police showed up talked to him and let him sleep it off at home.



To reiterate 911 dispatcher descriptions are just as unreliable as eye witness testimonials.

Edit. You also could wait for more equipt unit to arrive. The store was obviously being cleared out. Even if he didn't comply but had not fired shots at you he is at a dead end aisle. You don't fire on him but you keep him in his current position. If he had a real gun and fired then do what you have to protect innocent people from being harmed. You could even push the shelves onto him. They could have at least garnered whether or not he was a threat if the had waited more than 12 seconds. That time was from arrival to the time he was gunned down.


If you allow the police to have military grade hardware you must enforce a military standard of training. Hell, I know guys that are police officers now that served that can testify to having more restrictions on lethal force back in the service compared to the authorization patrols get back in America.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Going by the video (and this story), the gun was on the ground when he was shot the second time.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...rawford-police

Anyway, why would the officer interrogating the dead guy's girlfriend keep asking her about where he got the "gun"? Wouldn't it have been obvious by then that he never actually had a real gun?

That's the real dodgy part about the latest news on this one. Sure, you can make a case that the officers legitimately shot the guy because they believed he was holding a rifle in the Wal-Mart, but after the fact (when he's dead, and there isn't actually a gun) why the belligerent interrogation and flippant "he's dead" routine with the girlfriend? Is there some way that officer couldn't have known that it was a toy gun?

Exactly. They already knew it was an AIR SOFT gun at this point. Once again this was an OPEN CARRY STATE!! He was black he passed 3 white males in the footage. Some one panicked because it was a black guy.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PIMking

So witness for cop lied and is a known moron and its a huge deal, main witness for brown lied and known criminal and its no biggie?

Either way police need to stop shooting people. I've been watch COPS on tv lately and just shocked on how they treat people when they know the camera is on them.

Calling Dorian Johnson a common criminal is a bit of a stretch. Go look at the incident that he actually has a record for. It's incredibly minor and happened years ago.

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Its an open carry state!!! Give him at least 1 freeze!! I have followed this since day one. If eye witness statements can not be trusted then why should the 911 call be considered word of law?? They came around the corner and fired instantly without hesitation. I may not be a cop but I went through 6 years of military school (6-12) and 3 years of service 18-21. I would have I.d. my self 4 or five rows back. I would have waited and gave out orders. " blank police department. We received a 911 call throw down your weapon and reveal yourself with your hands behind your back with your back facing us. Failure to comply will be met with deadly force. You have 30 seconds to decide." At least a ####ing warning. 911 description calls come directly from an eye witness. How can one say " well the eye witness was not reliable but the 911 dispatcher is".


Was the dispatcher there? No. Maybe a little discretion on the officers part would be nice.

This is an open carry state!!! For all they knew he was a legal holder. He was black that's it. There is no other reason. This year a Caucasian guy that was drunk threatening random people on the street with a small armsweapon and you know what happened? the police showed up talked to him and let him sleep it off at home.



To reiterate 911 dispatcher descriptions are just as unreliable as eye witness testimonials.

Edit. You also could wait for more equipt unit to arrive. The store was obviously being cleared out. Even if he didn't comply but had not fired shots at you he is at a dead end aisle. You don't fire on him but you keep him in his current position. If he had a real gun and fired then do what you have to protect innocent people from being harmed. You could even push the shelves onto him. They could have at least garnered whether or not he was a threat if the had waited more than 12 seconds. That time was from arrival to the time he was gunned down.


If you allow the police to have military grade hardware you must enforce a military standard of training. Hell, I know guys that are police officers now that served that can testify to having more restrictions on lethal force back in the service compared to the authorization patrols get back in America.

Sorry, I don't follow you on this one. The caller stated that there's a guy in the store with a gun and that he's pointing it at people. That's what he said. That's what was relayed to the police.

Now I am not saying the police shouldn't have done things differently. There's a million things they should have and could have done.

Standard of training. What is your understanding of this standard? Do you know? When can police use lethal force? When is it justified? I am just interested since you brought it up.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Sorry, I don't follow you on this one. The caller stated that there's a guy in the store with a gun and that he's pointing it at people. That's what he said. That's what was relayed to the police.

Now I am not saying the police shouldn't have done things differently. There's a million things they should have and could have done.

Standard of training. What is your understanding of this standard? Do you know? When can police use lethal force? When is it justified? I am just interested since you brought it up.

And the caller was wrong. 911 dispatch relayed that incorrect information. 911 dispatch was not a reliable source for determining the truth of what happened there, because what 911 told the police was not correct.

What are you not understanding there?

Originally Posted by Knalus

And the caller was wrong. 911 dispatch relayed that incorrect information. 911 dispatch was not a reliable source for determining the truth of what happened there, because what 911 told the police was not correct.

What are you not understanding there?

Please don't go down the pissing match route.

The dispatcher relayed the correct information as provided by the witness.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Pissing match commence. Fight among yourselves.

Haven't you decided 4 or 5 times now that you're leaving this thread?

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Haven't you decided 4 or 5 times now that you're leaving this thread?

No, I just stop posting for a while so all you guys can have a big back pat.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Alright. You are right. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I guess I'm no different then you and the likes of you.

Now carry on.

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Well that escalated quickly.

Carry on.

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

David Koresh say's hi.

Sorry to shoot one over the bow... I have nothing to add to this mess... carry on.

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Ya, that's right. It's the fault of the police.

Move along, nothing to see here.

Your act is tired, Wookie.