Devin Setoguchi

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Really ?? You are going to say that the NHL brain thrust.... many former players... are infallible judges of NHL potential from observing practices and scrimmages and non-NHL games?

Who said anything about "infallible"? That's a far cry from my expectation that the seasoned professionals who work with these kids on a daily basis have a better inclination than both you and I do about their individual readiness at the NHL level.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Next you are going to tell me that coaches watching Giordano an a daily basis for years could tell he was not as good a hockey player as Bouwmeester and even if he was given the opportunity he would never ever be a #1 Defenseman.

No. But I will remind you that when Giordano rejected the Flames two-way contract offer and went to play hockey in Russia, he was not a NHL top-four defenseman by any reasonable measure. He showed potential that I am fairly confident the coaching and scouting staff were keenly aware of at the time, but it was a long road for Giordano to get to where he is today.

I guess I could be wrong. Perhaps we ought to defer to your better judgement—since talent assessment is such a crap shoot, who needs scouts and coaches?

Originally Posted by ricardodw

At the end of last season with Knight/Hankowski/Agostino/Van Brabant/Reinhart/Granlund rotating in the line-up replacing Stajan and Stempniak and Glencross the team did far better than the team did with the proven NHL players.

Is there some sort of artistic impression points that devalues these wins that I don't know about?

At the end of a losing season with nothing left to play for, jacked up on adrenaline and the euphoria of NHL success, in a limited window from which we must qualify the quality of the evidence relative to the sample size.

No artistic impression. Only a balanced and tempered review that recognises the many, many mitigating factors that can produce outliers in performance.

[Red Menace]

The organization should be focused on what is in the best interest for the 2015/16 season and beyond. Adding veteran patches to fill our holes this season doesn't do much but limit the potential growth of some of our prospects and decrease our lottery chances.
All of these deals can be rationalized on a case by cases basis, but when you add them all up I think they are doing more harm than good to the future of the organization.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No one is making excuses for him, and he most definitely should (and will) have to earn a spot on the team.

However, expecting him to simply come in and be immediately great and impactful, completely reversing last season's struggles, seems like somewhat lofty expectations, no?

He has proven in the past that he can play. He says he is motivated.

Giving him some time to prove that, and re-establish himself and his career doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, especially since a) we have absolutely nothing to lose, and b) a lot to gain.

That's fine. But so far he is exactly the player many of us thought we were getting. His play in multiple preseason games is validating the concerns. The criticism is completely justified.

If he turns it around then fine. But what reason does anyone have that he will? Sounds like a lot of hopefully optimism and excuse making to me. More often than not a duck is a duck.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by kehatch

That's fine. But so far he is exactly the player many of us thought we were getting. His play in multiple preseason games is validating the concerns. The criticism is completely justified.

If he turns it around then fine. But what reason does anyone have that he will? Sounds like a lot of hopefully optimism and excuse making to me. More often than not a duck is a duck.

I'm not even sure anyone is optimistic of this, just realistic that we can take longer than training camp and pre season to figure it out when it comes to Setoguchi.............it's not a decision that needs to be made by Oct. 8th.

[ricardodw]

Okay here is a suggestion that the NHL brain trust (group think / Old players club pick one) might have done with setoguchi.


He had no where to play in the NHL.... He was not near good enough for the Jets and the Flames decided to give him a chance.

The Flames should have signed him to a 4 year contract at 750K / year with the first year the 750K in the the minors and the next 3 years at 60k in the minors.

That way if he uses this last opportunity to play in the NHL to restart his career the Flames have a great benefit for giving him the opportunity. Right now they are basically giving him a huge severance package to finish his career.... or a lottery ticket for 3-4M if he actually plays well.


Same as the Leafs giving Raymond a $1m last chance contract. If the Leafs were at all innovative they would have Raymond for another 3 years at 1M / year. Would have Raymond turned down the Leafs offer and gone to play for less in Europe??

The old players in management are just too nice to their union brothers who may be winding down their careers.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Who knew a low risk signing would turn out to be a whipping boy. It only took a month.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I'm not even sure anyone is optimistic of this, just realistic that we can take longer than training camp and pre season to figure it out when it comes to Setoguchi.............it's not a decision that needs to be made by Oct. 8th.

That might be you. But that isn't many posts in this thread.

Regardless, the Flames are at the point where they are cutting players. Based on his play so far he should be one of the next cuts. I don't necessarily agree he has a lot longer to pick it up.

He has been given more opportunity then many Flames fighting for spots already.

[TheDebaser]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Who knew a low risk signing would turn out to be a whipping boy. It only took a month.

I think people resent him taking a roster spot when the reality is that if some of our kids have to play in addy the world will still turn.

I think he'll be forgiven pretty quickly once the cuts have been made. It will be interesting to see whether or not he can manage to pick up his game as the year goes on. Keep in mind that it hasn't even been a year since Backlund was healthy scratched, if Setoguchi backs up his talk with the right attitude this could end up being a great signing at 750k. Getting assets for nothing is a good thing. It's even better if you can throw them away if they don't turn out to be worthwhile.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by kehatch

That might be you. But that isn't many posts in this thread.

Regardless, the Flames are at the point where they are cutting players. Based on his play so far he should be one of the next cuts. I don't necessarily agree he has a lot longer to pick it up.

He has been given more opportunity then many Flames fighting for spots already.

Yes, because he has already proven that he CAN play and he CAN contribute at the NHL level. Many other Flames have not already proven that and therefore don't get the same opportunities afforded to them until they do (this would have been the same for Setoguchi when he entered the league).

Setoguchi has already proven he CAN be a very effective NHL player, so there is less need for him to wrap it all up in a package for us at training camp. Now I agree, he can't ride his past forever, but it absolutely has earned him a longer look. Plus it doesn't matter when you cut him, there is nothing for him to gain by getting to the AHL and starting camp there, but there is for the some of the younger kids who simply won't get the attention they need by staying up at the NHL camp, so why not cut him (if you are going to cut him) at the last possible moment?

[PugnaciousIntern]

I'm feeling that some of this is misdirected anger at the fact that we have a handful of promising LW prospects but nobody to displace a questionable RW veteran.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Okay here is a suggestion that the NHL brain trust (group think / Old players club pick one) might have done with setoguchi.


He had no where to play in the NHL.... He was not near good enough for the Jets and the Flames decided to give him a chance.

The Flames should have signed him to a 4 year contract at 750K / year with the first year the 750K in the the minors and the next 3 years at 60k in the minors.

That way if he uses this last opportunity to play in the NHL to restart his career the Flames have a great benefit for giving him the opportunity. Right now they are basically giving him a huge severance package to finish his career.... or a lottery ticket for 3-4M if he actually plays well.


Same as the Leafs giving Raymond a $1m last chance contract. If the Leafs were at all innovative they would have Raymond for another 3 years at 1M / year. Would have Raymond turned down the Leafs offer and gone to play for less in Europe??

The old players in management are just too nice to their union brothers who may be winding down their careers.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Yes, because he has already proven that he CAN play and he CAN contribute at the NHL level. Many other Flames have not already proven that and therefore don't get the same opportunities afforded to them until they do (this would have been the same for Setoguchi when he entered the league).

Setoguchi has already proven he CAN be a very effective NHL player, so there is less need for him to wrap it all up in a package for us at training camp. Now I agree, he can't ride his past forever, but it absolutely has earned him a longer look. Plus it doesn't matter when you cut him, there is nothing for him to gain by getting to the AHL and starting camp there, but there is for the some of the younger kids who simply won't get the attention they need by staying up at the NHL camp, so why not cut him (if you are going to cut him) at the last possible moment?

He hasn't been good in two seasons. Arguably three if you watch him play and don't just look at the stat line. Your suggestion that he has already proven what he can do is exactly the excuse I am referring to.

He has as much to prove as anyone in training camp. I don't care what he did four years ago.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by TheDebaser

I think people resent him taking a roster spot when the reality is that if some of our kids have to play in addy the world will still turn..

I think a lot of us, myself included, have a tendency to overrate some of our prospects as well. Most of them will never become full time NHLers.

I remember a while back, someone posted some stats that suggested if a player is not making the NHL full time by 22 years old, the odds of them ever becoming full time players start to diminish.

[Da_Chief]

Unless he becomes a 40 goal scorer this year, the haters will continue to hate. Make zero sense for what we're paying him.

He's still only 27 and can still turn his career around. He's got size, speed and has some skill too. It's up to him but judging him the pre-season makes ZERO sense.

[Frank MetaMusil]

I don't really know what to think about Setoguchi, but had Treliving picked him up off waivers it would look like Comeau 2.0 to me. I think fans are just tired of the reclamation projects. I'd honestly rather have Heatley for another 250k.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

I don't really know what to think about Setoguchi, but had Treliving picked him up off waivers it would look like Comeau 2.0 to me. I think fans are just tired of the reclamation projects. I'd honestly rather have Heatley for another 250k.

Heatley wouldn't work here. Dude can barely skate anymore, at least Setoguchi doesn't look like he's got a piano strapped to his back. The ducks are banking on Getzlaf finding him for tap ins and on the PP. He'd look so bad here with no elite center to feed him pucks. Setoguchi has more potential, is younger and shoots right. And why would Heatley choose us over Anaheim anyway to resurrect his career? We probably could have offered him 5m and he would have said no, he's trying to extend his career and have team success. The hate Setoguchi is getting is un-freaking-believable.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Heatley wouldn't work here. Dude can barely skate anymore, at least Setoguchi doesn't look like he's got a piano strapped to his back. The ducks are banking on Getzlaf finding him for tap ins and on the PP. He'd look so bad here with no elite center to feed him pucks. Setoguchi has more potential, is younger and shoots right. And why would Heatley choose us over Anaheim anyway to resurrect his career? We probably could have offered him 5m and he would have said no, he's trying to extend his career and have team success. The hate Setoguchi is getting is un-freaking-believable.

I never said I hated Setoguchi, or the signing. I understand why some do though. Heatley might choose Calgary for the same reasons Setoguchi did, he'd get ice time and he grew up here. He's also a former 50, 40, 30, and 20 goal scorer, just 2 seasons removed.

I'm not going to make Setoguchi a whipping boy and I also hope he pans out, but the fact remains he's a reclamation project.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

I never said I hated Setoguchi, or the signing. I understand why some do though. Heatley might choose Calgary for the same reasons Setoguchi did, he'd get ice time and he grew up here. He's also a former 50, 40, 30, and 20 goal scorer, just 2 seasons removed.

I'm not going to make Setoguchi a whipping boy and I also hope he pans out, but the fact remains he's a reclamation project.

Sorry I didn't mean you in particular were hating him, even though I quoted your post. I was more referring to general fan sentiment in this thread. I just think we need to give our management the benefit of the doubt here and give Setoguchi at least 10-15 games to see what he's got.

[Stay Golden]

Setoguchi especially for the light contract is worth more of a gamble than what David Jones has been and his 4m. Still I would rather the Flames had gone with one of the many prospect forwards they have currently.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Setoguchi especially for the light contract is worth more of a gamble than what David Jones has been and his 4m.

Great point. We could've easily compliance bought out or just bought out a turd like Jones and brought in a guy like Heatley. Not sure why they kept him, probably for the cap hit. Setoguchi should have more rope than any vet forward on our roster not named Backlund, Hudler or Glencross, when you factor in salary and how much of a chance they've been afforded.