Men-only barber shop controversy

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

There are all sorts of gender specific clubs and groups in Canada though so are those problematic? I have a friend who runs a company which organizes monthly outings and events specifically for females. There are countless professional groups and organizations for women in business/sciences/engineering/medicine etc. Some of those groups host events and seminars where they specifically seek out female presenters or speakers. How are these types of "girls" clubs any different?

Really? This again? How many times do we have to go through this argument, that you've even been present for the entire thread?

[VladtheImpaler]

Pffff - 1) it's Saskatchewan and 2) she is a professor of gender and women's studies. Neither of those things can be taken seriously. She should get a real degree/job and try a barbershop in the 1st world, then we can judge...

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I'm still not buying it, and your analogy doesn't make sense. A more apt comparison would be a Volvo owner wanting to get her engine and transmission serviced at the same shop as you but being turned away because her car is a different colour than the other vehicles they typically work on.

I think V is much closer to the mark when he says it's all about maintaining a "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" boys' club atmosphere. If that is indeed the case, I have absolutely zero sympathy for the business owner and the sexist clientele who would seek out such an establishment. I'd expect that kind of attitude to exist in places like Saudi Arabia but certainly not 21st century Canada.

I don't think either of us know for sure exactly what the purpose is for wanting to promote a gender specific clientele, so my pitchfork is out but still unsharpened.

Maybe he should set it up like club with membership criteria instead. I am pretty sure that it still allows for discrimination that way.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Pffff - 1) it's Saskatchewan and 2) she is a professor of gender and women's studies. Neither of those things can be taken seriously. She should get a real degree/job and try a barbershop in the 1st world, then we can judge...

The professor is who the newspaper talked to after the woman who filed the complaint refused their interview request. The CBC link has an interview with the actual woman.


Your point about Saskatchewan is still valid.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Pffff - 1) it's Saskatchewan and 2) she is a professor of gender and women's studies. Neither of those things can be taken seriously. She should get a real degree/job and try a barbershop in the 1st world, then we can judge...

For a lawyer, you sure didn't do your due diligence on that one.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by rubecube

For a lawyer, you sure didn't do your due diligence on that one.

You think I have time to read this crap? Actual victim/commentator - whatever - same point holds.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Really? This again? How many times do we have to go through this argument, that you've even been present for the entire thread?

So only white men's groups are the enemy of equality?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

There are all sorts of gender specific clubs and groups in Canada though so are those problematic? I have a friend who runs a company which organizes monthly outings and events specifically for females. There are countless professional groups and organizations for women in business/sciences/engineering/medicine etc. Some of those groups host events and seminars where they specifically seek out female presenters or speakers. How are these types of "girls" clubs any different?

Before I provide a detailed response to this post, let me first ask you a question:

Why do we have gay pride parades but not straight pride parades?

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by V

It's not that complicated. They're promoting a vagina-free barber shop. Obviously there's demand for such a place, since they're still in business. Doesn't make it right, but it seems to have been working for them so far.

This has nothing to do with technique and everything to do with the fact that apparently some guys want to get their hair cut without the annoying presence of a woman in the room. I don't get it, and don't think it's right, but there appears to be a demand. By allowing women into the establishment they will potentially lose clientelle that enjoy visiting for the vagina-free atmosphere.

I really can't grasp how any man would give a rat's behind who was waiting in the chair next to them? The only reason I would care is because I would likely have to wait longer but the same thoughts would run through my head if it was a guy with long hair. The gender to me is irrelevant.


Honestly, is cutting your hair some sort of symbolic thing? You are cutting your hair, you're not being baptized, or circumcised. Are there real mean out there who care if there is another woman in the shop with them?

Maybe I have just been dumb, stupid, and blind, because I don't see these type of men in real life. If they exist then that's a disgrace.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Before I provide a detailed response to this post, let me first ask you a question:

Why do we have gay pride parades but not straight pride parades?

I don't know. Maybe straight people don't have a desire to celebrate their sexual orientation? Would society be deeply offended if parades celebrating heterosexual orientation were organized?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

So only white men's groups are the enemy of equality?

Again, you're missing the point. Photon, myself, and others addressed this argument in a variety of different forms ad nauseam both yesterday and today. Whether you can't be bothered to read the thread, your comprehension skills aren't fine-tuned enough to follow the conversation, or maybe we've done a poor job of explaining the concepts, I don't see how going over it for the nth time is going to satisfy your concerns. As photon suggested, there are plenty of other resources you can seek out if you feel inclined to do so.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I don't know. Maybe straight people don't have a desire to celebrate their sexual orientation? Would society be deeply offended if parades celebrating heterosexual orientation were organized?

Yeah, I'm done here. Godspeed, MarchHare. Godspeed.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

You think I have time to read this crap? Actual victim/commentator - whatever - same point holds.

And some might say personal injury lawyers are lawyers in the same way that chiropractors are doctors.

[troutman]

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Again, you're missing the point. Photon, myself, and others addressed this argument in a variety of different forms ad nauseam both yesterday and today. Whether you can't be bothered to read the thread, your comprehension skills aren't fine-tuned enough to follow the conversation, or maybe we've done a poor job of explaining the concepts, I don't see how going over it for the nth time is going to satisfy your concerns. As photon suggested, there are plenty of other resources you can seek out if you feel inclined to do so.

I've read and fully comprehend what has been stated but don't agree with this notion of justifiable or selective discrimination. We either have or strive to achieve a society based on equality where there exist no limitations or exclusions or we have a society where it is acceptable for a certain group to be exclusionary but not others.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I've read and fully comprehend what has been stated but don't agree with this notion of justifiable or selective discrimination. We either have or strive to achieve a society based on equality where there exist no limitations or exclusions or we have a society where it is acceptable for a certain group to be exclusionary but not others.

If we lived in an already equitable society where people could be trusted not to discriminate, or when one group did not overwhelmingly harass and assault another group, you would be correct. As it is, certain segments of the population need protection. Sometimes this results in the exclusion of one group that already has almost every single advantage they could possibly have just by virtue of what group(s) they were born into.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I don't know. Maybe straight people don't have a desire to celebrate their sexual orientation? Would society be deeply offended if parades celebrating heterosexual orientation were organized?

Assuming you really don't know and you're not just trolling, I'll explain. Please note: I'm absolutely not trying to be condescending towards you, so don't read this post in that kind of tone. I genuinely hope you learn something from this.

The reason there are gay pride parades but not straight pride parades is because LGBT people have historically been a persecuted minority group who have suffered great injustices. Many of them have felt compelled to hide their sexual orientation (remaining "in the closet") because they genuinely feel afraid for the well-being (either physical safety or familial, professional, and inter-personal relationships) if others knew they were homosexual. Marching in gay pride parades is one way for LGBT people to say, "I am NOT ashamed of who I am, and I'm not going to hide myself from the world." Straight people have never suffered that same type of persecution. No heterosexual person has ever been shamed for being straight. No heterosexual person has ever had to stay "in the closet" out of fear.

It's for a similar reason that there are groups specifically for women who work in traditionally male-dominated professions like science, technology, engineering, etc. Whether you realize it or not, they face many additional challenges in their careers that are not shared by their male colleagues. There doesn't need to be a "Men in Engineering" group that brings in guest speakers to talk about the trials and tribulations faced by men working in that field because male engineers do not typically have their careers damaged by systemic bias against their gender, nor do they have to deal with frequently rampant sexism in their workplaces.

I don't know if any of these exist, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were similar groups for men working in traditionally female-dominated professions like nursing or social work.

Now with all that being said, it's completely irrelevant to this story. The business in question is a barbershop that specializes in men's haircuts. The woman entered the shop and said, "I'll have one men's haircut please." The response she received was, "We don't serve your kind here." I've yet to see a legitimate reason that rationally and logically explains how denial of service on the grounds of gender is justified in a Western democracy that values equality like Canada does.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by rubecube

If we lived in an already equitable society where people could be trusted not to discriminate, or when one group did not overwhelmingly harass and assault another group, you would be correct. As it is, certain segments of the population need protection. Sometimes this results in the exclusion of one group that already has almost every single advantage they could possibly have just by virtue of what group(s) they were born into.

But even the various human rights boards sometime identify that it is acceptable to discriminate against various minorities.

duty to accommodate when providing commercial service-Meiorin test applied

A mother was asked by a store owner to breastfeed in a courtyard adjoining a store, rather than in the main part of the store. The Manitoba (human rights) board of adjudication found that the store owner's policy against eating and drinking in the store discriminated against the complainant, and that the store owner had a duty to accommodate the complainant's needs, based on the Manitoba Human Rights Code, the common law, and international covenants. Applying the three-step test in Meiorin, the board found in its analysis of whether or not the respondent's actions were reasonably necessary that the store had adequately accommodated the complainant by offering her alternative seating. The board also found that the complainant had not fully participated in the accommodation process.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I don't know if any of these exist, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were similar groups for men working in traditionally female-dominated professions like nursing or social work.

Not to derail your post, but I know that the Ontario nursing board has a group specifically dedicated to male nurses.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

But even the various human rights boards sometime identify that it is acceptable to discriminate against various minorities.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Yes, there are cases where the HRT rules against minorities, and that's generally in situations where they find that reasonable, alternative accommodations were provided, or if the original complaint was frivolous. In this case it looks like the store's policy was considered discriminatory but the store owner acquiesced and provided a reasonable alternative.