Men-only barber shop controversy

[indes]

It's sad that I'm not the least bit surprised this thread ended up about sexism, misogyny and sexual harassment.

Did anyone consider that maybe the barber feels uncomfortable cutting women's hair? I don't understand why
he doesn't have the right to have a mens only barbershop. As others have stated the only reason a woman would
go to a mens only barber shop and raise a stink is to prove a point.

I mean is this what the equality debate has devolved to? A barber shop?
It reminds me of grade school when the teacher caught you chewing gum, "did you bring enough for everyone?"

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

My argument is you can't have it both ways. Have your Women's gym and then complain about a barber shop who only does men's hair.

I like that idea of having a gym for people who don't want to be in that environment because frankly I am sick of it myself so I do understand why women would be as well.

So why can't women have a gym exactly? Men have gyms, so do women, but women can't complain about the completely unrelated issue of a men's only barber shop because they already have a right equal to men?

"Hey, we'll let you have a gym like we do, but don't complain about other stuff, or we're taking it away."

And if you're looking for a chill atmosphere, Planet Fitness markets itself as exactly that.

[The Ditch]

Originally Posted by indes

It's sad that I'm not the least bit surprised this thread ended up about sexism, misogyny and sexual harassment.

Did anyone consider that maybe the barber feels uncomfortable cutting women's hair? I don't understand why
he doesn't have the right to have a mens only barbershop. As others have stated the only reason a woman would
go to a mens only barber shop and raise a stink is to prove a point.

I mean is this what the equality debate has devolved to? A barber shop?
It reminds me of grade school when the teacher caught you chewing gum, "did you bring enough for everyone?"

It's also sad when people don't read threads and post

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

No women should deal with that, but honestly those instances are pretty rare. I used to work out at Mount Royal every day at school and rarely did I see that happen.

So because you have not personally witnessed sexual harassment at the gym, it's therefore not a legitimate issue faced by women? All those women who make Curves a viable international business with 10,000 locations and 4 million members (numbers from wikipedia) are just over-reacting to a problem that doesn't really exist because Arya Stark says so?

[AcGold]

My guess is women just wanted a gym to be comfortable in, harassment is less common than being ogled which I could see being annoying as hell if you actually are there to workout. I've never seen harassment but ogling happens every 10-15 seconds if you're an attractive women.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

According to this site http://www.statisticbrain.com/sex-offender-statistics/

there are 747,408 convicted and registered sex offenders in the USA, out of a population of 317 million (48.5% male overall, or ~154 million). Lets say that out of those 747408 sex offenders, only 80% of them are male (likely a very conservative statistic based on incarceration rates), which leaves just under 600000 convicted and registered male sex offenders in the USA.

That is just under 4%, or 1 in 25 males, that are convicted and registered sex offenders. This is not counting the fact that rape is severely underreported, and even when it is, many rapists escape conviction. The numbers (even on the conservative side) are pretty horrific.

This isn't even adjusting population for those only over the age of 15.

~20.2% of the population is 0-14, so you can hack off 31 mil off the 154, and take that down to 123 mil, which raises the number of convicted males to 5%, or 1 in 20.

Frightening but not surprising.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

So why can't women have a gym exactly? Men have gyms, so do women, but women can't complain about the completely unrelated issue of a men's only barber shop because they already have a right equal to men?

"Hey, we'll let you have a gym like we do, but don't complain about other stuff, or we're taking it away."

And if you're looking for a chill atmosphere, Planet Fitness markets itself as exactly that.

Sorry, are you saying there is a men only gym?

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Bow Valley is not a men's only fitness club though. They are a fitness club for both men and women but have separate facilities for both genders. Both sexes share a common dining, lounge and racquet sports area.

I think you're missing the point. If you're looking for a gym space that is "men only" then that absolutely exists (it also has a men's only lounge). It also happens to include a women's only area as well. There is nothing wrong with either of those things.

There was also Cuts Fitness for Men a while back (which was a men's only fitness franchise that failed miserably).

The point is, an exclusive gym experience is not something only women get or are able to get, men can very easily have that same exclusive gym experience and hang out with just the bros, so why is THAT what men try to take away when a girl wants a men's haircut?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Forgive me for asking some of the more vocal/well written folks on this topic their opinion on a similar matter. Clearly I overstepped by asking about it.

You didn't ask my opinion though, if you'd asked for it I would have answered. What you asked was (a seeming leading question of) why three posters with a certain perspective hadn't commented on something. Not the same at all, so I can't forgive you for something you didn't do.

Originally Posted by pylon

But it is perfectly OK to say because a small minority of men are rapists, it is 100% OK and understandable to exclude them from the same establishment.

We haven't moved past this point, and nothing anyone has said seems to resonate or fit.

I mean obviously it's not because every judge that's ever ruled on the legality of women's only gyms just happened to be a man-hater. And it's not like your rights as a man are being limited at every step in society.

So since this is the sticking point (the justification of discrimination in this case), maybe you need to reach outside our community to someone who's more of an expert that can better explain the justification and the reasoning behind it?

Because it feels like your making this into a society wide equality issue when in reality it's limited to very few specific circumstances.

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

In this situation, the harm is small as well. The female patron can readily move along to another barber or salon within the city. Problem solved.

Yes but the harm being prevented has to be weighed as well. The default position is discrimination is illegal unless justified. The business or the men going to the business would have to make a case to justify the discrimination.

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Many women are barbers and know how to cut a men's style hair cut since it is pretty much the easiest thing to learn out of school.

And yet there's someone in this thread with direct experience that contradicts you about that specific cut. That makes it difficult to put much merit in what you are saying here.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

The point being, men have the same equal right to feel safe as women do. End of story.

Sure they do, nothing's preventing them. But the law states that a public place can't discriminate based on gender. If they want to exclude women, gather in a private place.

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

I am mostly arguing that the barber is also entitled to cut men's hair only.

The charter disagrees, they aren't.

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

My argument is you can't have it both ways. Have your Women's gym and then complain about a barber shop who only does men's hair.

The differences have been gone over, it's not equivalent. Or if you don't agree about the differences, run your disagreements by a relevant judge or law professor and let us know. Either your points will have merit and spawn a great discussion, or you'll find out why they don't have merit in view of the law.

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

The guy cutting hair is not sexist, he just doesn't know how/or doesn't want to cut a women's hair.

She was asking for a specific cut that they were experts at. The barber never claimed to not know how to cut women's hair. That they don't want to cut women's hair is irrelevant, they are obligated to under the Canadian charter.

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

A women's hair takes much longer or might need prolonged use of scissors which barbers try to minimize the use of.

The charter doesn't say they can discriminate based on wear and tear. You're talking nonsense now. If they go through 3 pairs of scissors because of womens' apparently freakishly hard hair, then charge 5% more for extra scissors.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Sorry, are you saying there is a men only gym?

There was a franchise (Cuts Fitness for Men) that came up in response to Curves, and Bow Valley has completely separate men's and women's floors (essentially it is both a "men's only" and "women's only" gym, as there are expansive areas where either men or women are not allowed).

[pylon]

I think the womens only gym was brought up, because it is a well known example of a womens only establishment where men are unwelcome.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by AcGold

My guess is women just wanted a gym to be comfortable in, harassment is less common than being ogled which I could see being annoying as hell if you actually are there to workout. I've never seen harassment but ogling happens every 10-15 seconds if you're an attractive women.

I blame lululemon.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by AcGold

My guess is women just wanted a gym to be comfortable in, harassment is less common than being ogled which I could see being annoying as hell if you actually are there to workout. I've never seen harassment but ogling happens every 10-15 seconds if you're an attractive women.

So by your own admission an attractive woman at a co-ed gym will be harassed every 10-15 seconds because ogling is harassment! Have none of you ever had to take a mandatory workplace sensitivity training course?

http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-prev...ual-harassment

The following list is not exhaustive, but it should help to identify what may be sexual and gender-based harassment:

demanding hugs[18]
invading personal space[19]
unnecessary physical contact,[20] including unwanted touching,[21] etc.
derogatory language and/or comments toward women[22] (or men, depending on the circumstances), sex-specific derogatory names[23]
leering[24] or inappropriate staring
gender-related comment about a person’s physical characteristics or mannerisms[25]
comments or conduct relating to a person’s perceived non-conformity with a sex-role stereotype[26]
displaying or circulating pornography,[27] sexual pictures or cartoons,[28] sexually explicit graffiti,[29] or other sexual images (including online)
sexual jokes, including circulating written sexual jokes (e.g. by e-mail)[30]
rough and vulgar humour or language related to gender
sexual or gender-related comment or conduct used to bully a person
spreading sexual rumours (including online)[31]
suggestive or offensive remarks or innuendo about members of a specific gender
propositions of physical intimacy
gender-related verbal abuse, threats, or taunting
bragging about sexual prowess
demanding dates or sexual favours
questions or discussions about sexual activities
requiring an employee to dress in a sexualized or gender-specific way[32]
paternalistic behaviour based on gender which a person feels undermines their status or position of responsibility
threats to penalize or otherwise punish a person who refuses to comply with sexual advances (known as reprisal).

Emphasis added.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by marchhare

a small number of men are rapists, but rape isn't the only type of sexual assault. And fear of sexual assault isn't even the only reason why there's a market demand for women's only gyms. Many women, even if they're not afraid of being raped at the gym, just don't want to put up with leering stares, creepy comments, or other forms of harassment when they're working out.

dp

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

A small number of men are rapists, but rape isn't the only type of sexual assault. And fear of sexual assault isn't even the only reason why there's a market demand for women's only gyms. Many women, even if they're not afraid of being raped at the gym, just don't want to put up with leering stares, creepy comments, or other forms of harassment when they're working out.

It would be egregious to think that it's okay to walk around with a massive erection while working out. However, being a gym, most of them wouldn't be that massive, but that isn't the point.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Why is it so difficult to understand that sometimes men just want to be left alone? It's a safe place for a man to just go and be a man for an hour, without worrying about anything.

Maybe it's a cigar and a glass of bourbon with your feet up and watching the ball game for an hour, while you're getting your hair cut in relative peace and quiet?

Maybe it's a place to go for someone who's suffered some sort of abuse at the hands of a woman, and is now just thankful that there's at least one place he can go and feel completely relaxed, other than his own one-room apartment.

Or it could be a small place where everyone knows each other and the clientele is really more like a large club where you'll some guys at a table playing cards, or some other guys watching a football game. A place where guys don't always go just to get a haircut, but can go just to hang out for an hour or two and socialize.

The point being, men have the same equal right to feel safe as women do. End of story.

I think the guy should have cut the girl's hair to be honest but I'm disappointed that Rubecube and Photon haven't responded to this post.

[photon]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

I'd invite you to join some fathers forums and talk to the men

For what purpose?

Originally Posted by indes

Did anyone consider that maybe the barber feels uncomfortable cutting women's hair?

He didn't claim that at all. And if it was true, then get a different barber that works there to do it. If they are all uncomfortable then one will have to suck it up and get over it, no one forced them to go into business. It's their responsibility to understand what running a business means.

Originally Posted by indes

I don't understand why he doesn't have the right to have a mens only barbershop.

Because in Canada we have this thing called the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The why is in there.

Originally Posted by indes

As others have stated the only reason a woman would go to a mens only barber shop and raise a stink is to prove a point.

Just because it is stated doesn't make it true.

Originally Posted by indes

I mean is this what the equality debate has devolved to? A barber shop?

Yeah, just like a whites only restaurant, it's just a restaurant.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by photon

The charter doesn't say they can discriminate based on wear and tear. You're talking nonsense now. If they go through 3 pairs of scissors because of womens' apparently freakishly hard hair, then charge 5% more for extra scissors.

No time to respond to your other points running out but I wasn't talking about wear and tear on scissors I was talking about barbers liking to minimize scissor use because prolonged use hurts the hands, wrists and it takes more time than using the trimmer.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

I think the guy should have cut the girl's hair to be honest but I'm disappointed that Rubecube and Photon haven't responded to this post.

I did and also responded to equivalent points earlier as well.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

No time to respond to your other points running out but I wasn't talking about wear and tear on scissors I was talking about barbers liking to minimize scissor use because prolonged use hurts the hands, wrists and it takes more time than using the trimmer.

Still nonsense, the charter doesn't say you can discriminate because your hands get more sore. If it takes longer, charge more.