I think I wasn't clear enough. I meant Israel and Hamas but didn't want to include the other Palestinian Parties. When I said "specifically Hamas" I was referring to the Palestinians
I don't think this clarifies things as much as you probably think it does. Palestinians are an occupied people without the rights of free association, commerce, legal or political representation.
They aren't in a position to be deciding much of anything.
The parallels between apartheid south Africa are both obvious and numerous.
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I don't think this clarifies things as much as you probably think it does. Palestinians are an occupied people without the rights of free association, commerce, legal or political representation.
They aren't in a position to be deciding much of anything.
The parallels between apartheid south Africa are both obvious and numerous.
Again, I'm referring to ruling bodies and using incorrect language. I'm not referring to Palestinian unwillingness to compromise as much as their various ruling parties. Does that clarify my original post any?
Israeli government - unwilling to compromise
Hamas - unwilling to compromise
Again, I'm referring to ruling bodies and using incorrect language. I'm not referring to Palestinian unwillingness to compromise as much as their various ruling parties. Does that clarify my original post any?
Israeli government - unwilling to compromise
Hamas - unwilling to compromise
So what makes Hamas specifically unwilling to compromise and not the Israelis, your original statement.
Seems like you're original point was the old "both sides are responsible but one Side is that much more responsible'
The trouble though is both sides are mostly unwilling to compromise from their ideal (Hamas specifically)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
So what makes Hamas specifically unwilling to compromise and not the Israelis, your original statement.
Seems like you're original point was the old "both sides are responsible but one Side is that much more responsible'
I fear we're going of track, but to clarify for the last time, if you reread the quote above and understand by the" Hamas specifically" I was singling out them in relation to the other parties who have shown a willingness to compromise. I meant "The trouble though is both sides are mostly unwilling to compromise from their ideal" but didn't want people to get confused with other Palestinian authorities other than specifically Hamas
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The only rockets that I would classify as weak are the Qassam 1 and 2 series of Rockets which carry a half kg to a 5 kg high explosive warhead that they pack with fragments for maximum casualties.
The Quassam 3 rocket carries a 15 kg high explosive warhead which would bring down a fairly good sized house.
Hammas has also bought in the Grad rocket with a 18 kg high explosive warhead and a range of 20 kms and is fired from a MLRS type of system which can fire a dozen rockets at a high tempo.
They have the WS-1 a modern artillery rocket made in China with a 45 km range and a 22 kg warhead again high explosive and packed with basically ball bearings.
in the last two years Hamas has built the Fadjr-5 rocket which is a 75 km range missile with a 90 kg high explosive warhead which can bring down buildings.
And this year they started bringing in M302 missiles which only exist in Syria and China's inventory, these are long range missiles with a 150km range and a 150 kg war head.
I mean I know you have to make your case but Hamas isn't firing party poppers here, or their rickity home made rockets, these are actual battlefield anti personal rockets and the new ones have heavy warheads and have good long and medium range capabilities.
They have some of those longer-range ones, but the vast majority are weak and are no threat to anyone.
The Grad rockets, WSE1 rockets are becoming the most common rockets fired and yes they are a threat and are actual military based rockets usually fired in pods of 6 to a dozen.
The Fadjr and M302 are becoming more common place and have large war heads and long range.
You could argue what your saying with the Qassam series rockets especially with the 1 and the 2, but those have been supplanted by the Qassam 3 with a 15 kg he warhead and a 12 km range.
I know you want to make it seem that what Palestine is shooting is harmless, but that's completely untrue.
a 15 kg high explosive warhead will do significant damage to civilian structures the 50 to 90 pound warheads in the larger rockets that Hamas has been bringing in more so.
Alright, let me be more clear in what I am trying to say.
The majority of muslims around the world don't really care about Israel;However, when discussing Israeli policies they will be more inclined to treat those policies with hostility(and anger).
Those muslims are not the ones that determine the foreign policy of their countries around the middle east.
Saddam Hussein's dream(Iraq)- end to the Zionist nightmare.
Ahmadinejad(Iran)- Israel should be eradicated off the face of the Earth.
Nasrallah(leader of Hezbollah, Lebanon)- Israel was “a cancerous growth” that had to be wiped out, he said. “The only solution is to destroy it without giving it the opportunity to surrender.
Haniyeh(leader of Hamas)-Goal is destruction of Israel in stages.
The muslims that happen to hold the weapons in their hands and use them, are the ones saying the above statements.
Until the muslim world starts publicly condemning such statements, and actively fighting against those policies I consider them to support them. Have you noticed how easily such proclamations are just shrugged off?!
Just like the proclamations, missiles towards Israel seem to get overlooked to for some reason, just because the other side has more losses? The missiles are even justified just because they don't do as much damage...
So yes a generalization of all muslims are wrong. It is done because passive support of terrorist actions is still support. Think for yourself how often do you actually publicly condemned the shootings of rockets toward Israel without the word BUT at the end(and without trying to explain or justify it).
It's amazing that you continue to post in a manner laden with generalizations, then end it by saying generalizations are wrong. And then you try to make the case for generalizations by saying that you're doing it to prompt a response?
And this concept of "passive" support is nonsensical. People don't say anything specifically (which is their right and raison d'etre in a "passive" stance), so you impugn their character by assuming their silence is consent of a horrible action. You have just as much evidence for their silence being consent as you do their silence being a reflection of the obvious: that no one supports violence and they're disgusted by it. You don't have the right to generalize what is in peoples' heads. Stick with trying to articulate the thoughts in your own.
And now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to scour the off-topic thread history to search for your active condemnation of Darfur, senseless drone killings, school shootings, and any other horrific crime I can think of... I really hope you spoke up in each instance, because we'd hate for some posters to make generalizations about what your "passive" silence implies.
The Grad rockets, WSE1 rockets are becoming the most common rockets fired and yes they are a threat and are actual military based rockets usually fired in pods of 6 to a dozen.
The Fadjr and M302 are becoming more common place and have large war heads and long range.
You could argue what your saying with the Qassam series rockets especially with the 1 and the 2, but those have been supplanted by the Qassam 3 with a 15 kg he warhead and a 12 km range.
I know you want to make it seem that what Palestine is shooting is harmless, but that's completely untrue.
a 15 kg high explosive warhead will do significant damage to civilian structures the 50 to 90 pound warheads in the larger rockets that Hamas has been bringing in more so.
The Grad rockets, WSE1 rockets are becoming the most common rockets fired and yes they are a threat and are actual military based rockets usually fired in pods of 6 to a dozen.
The Fadjr and M302 are becoming more common place and have large war heads and long range.
You could argue what your saying with the Qassam series rockets especially with the 1 and the 2, but those have been supplanted by the Qassam 3 with a 15 kg he warhead and a 12 km range.
I know you want to make it seem that what Palestine is shooting is harmless, but that's completely untrue.
a 15 kg high explosive warhead will do significant damage to civilian structures the 50 to 90 pound warheads in the larger rockets that Hamas has been bringing in more so.
I didn't say harmless, I said weak. Part of a rocket's strength is how accurate it is, most of their missiles are wildly inaccurate and fall into open areas (thankfully).
I didn't say harmless, I said weak. Part of a rocket's strength is how accurate it is, most of their missiles are wildly inaccurate and fall into open areas (thankfully).
I didn't say harmless, I said weak. Part of a rocket's strength is how accurate it is, most of their missiles are wildly inaccurate and fall into open areas (thankfully).
To me that's not really relevant, they're still trying to hit populated areas and incur terror and murder.
You can't penalize Israel in the public relations battle because they've put a pretty effective strategy together in terms of protecting their citizens.
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It's amazing that you continue to post in a manner laden with generalizations, then end it by saying generalizations are wrong. And then you try to make the case for generalizations by saying that you're doing it to prompt a response?
And this concept of "passive" support is nonsensical. People don't say anything specifically (which is their right and raison d'etre in a "passive" stance), so you impugn their character by assuming their silence is consent of a horrible action. You have just as much evidence for their silence being consent as you do their silence being a reflection of the obvious: that no one supports violence and they're disgusted by it. You don't have the right to generalize what is in peoples' heads. Stick with trying to articulate the thoughts in your own.
And now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to scour the off-topic thread history to search for your active condemnation of Darfur, senseless drone killings, school shootings, and any other horrific crime I can think of... I really hope you spoke up in each instance, because we'd hate for some posters to make generalizations about what your "passive" silence implies.
Alright, first of all I didn't see you responds to the claims made by leaders in the Arab world. For some reason comments made by leaders of countries tend to represent the attitude of a country towards another. And yes I am making the generalization that if those people are still in power they represent the majority in their country. I know, I took a huge leap there...
Do I know what each and every muslim thinks? No! Do I think that muslims as a whole want war? No! Do I think muslims are hostile people as a whole? No! Do I believe that a person living in a muslim country in the middle east is more likely to criticize Israeli war actions and ignore Palestinian ones? Yes. Again A huge leap I know...
Guess what in a discussion people over emphasize their points, that's where the generalizations come. Here is one used by you a few posts back-
Quote:
I'm certain that Israelis share an analogous feeling of abhorring hostility and violence and racism.
Seems very similar to points I am trying to make.
I know its easier to attack the flow of thoughts quickly written during 5 min off work, than responding to the actual points I made. If it makes you feel like a better man I am happy for you .
To me that's not really relevant, they're still trying to hit populated areas and incur terror and murder.
You can't penalize Israel in the public relations battle because they've put a pretty effective strategy together in terms of protecting their citizens.
Oh for sure, it's totally wrong to try and hit populated areas. My only issue is people talking about these rockets like it's a shock and awe campaign against israel.
Alright, first of all I didn't see you responds to the claims made by leaders in the Arab world.
You're right I did not. I find that type of exercise to be silly and futile. Avigdor Lieberman has made some brutal comments, and is a member of the Israeli government. But I don't go trotting those out because I don't think they're representative. I don't ask you to refute clear craziness, and ask that you treat me the same. I don't play that silly game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gvitaly
For some reason comments made by leaders of countries tend to represent the attitude of a country towards another. And yes I am making the generalization that if those people are still in power they represent the majority in their country. I know, I took a huge leap there...
See Avigdor Lieberman. I can post more, but it is not my interest. I'm not trying to pigeonhole a country and its population through quotations. I'm more into looking at actions. Please feel free to exchange inflammatory quotes with another poster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gvitaly
Do I know what each and every muslim thinks? No! Do I think that muslims as a whole want war? No! Do I think muslims are hostile people as a whole? No! Do I believe that a person living in a muslim country in the middle east is more likely to criticize Israeli war actions and ignore Palestinian ones? Yes. Again A huge leap I know...
So? The exact same train of thought can be put into place for Israelis if you wanted. It just means people tend to evince nationalism under a disguise of patriotism. But it proves nothing and is irrelevant to a resolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gvitaly
Guess what in a discussion people over emphasize their points, that's where the generalizations come. Here is one used by you a few posts back- .... Seems very similar to points I am trying to make.
Funny as my generalizations about Israelis were positive: they're good people who want peace. Go back and read your generalizations from the beginning.
You'll have to excuse me if I don't find positive generalizations about human beings offensive or in the same vein as the ones you're making. My default is to assume people are good and peaceful, and I think a scan of the world proves that to be true. I don't find that generalization offensive. Generalizations that suggest baseline stances that run counter to respecting other people are offensive, and should give you pause before committing them to paper (or screen)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gvitaly
I know its easier to attack the flow of thoughts quickly written during 5 min off work, than responding to the actual points I made.
I don't attack flow of thoughts. I read, am dependent on your use of language, and respond accordingly. And I have more than 5 minutes off of work, thank you very much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gvitaly
If it makes you feel like a better man I am happy for you .
It makes me feel better as a man when I work from the premise that people are peaceful and desire dignity. I don't value one person's dignity more than another's simply based on some arbitrary piece of biology that determined when and where they were born. Unless they are Oilers fans, at which point it's clear they do not desire dignity.
You think if someone is a Jew, Muslim, or Christian they are stupid and dangerous?
Dangerous in what sense? Stupid? This post is garbage and an insult to a lot of religious people on this board.
I think what he should of said is religious fundamentalists can be dangerous. Taking a religious scripture that was written thousands of years ago and taking it literal in translation can be dangerous in any religion. look at the Iraq/Syria situation and even in the States with Churches calling for deaths of gays,killing abortion doctors etc. Not all religous people are dangerous but the Fundamentalists can be.
The wars going on all over Middle east are horrible. Most of the people are religious and peaceful. They are not the ones who are leading the mass violent conflicts tho. It is the radical Fundamentalists that are leading the way.
This is Just one video to show case how people in that region actually feel about each other with out having it be in a combat situation.
Last edited by combustiblefuel; 07-18-2014 at 05:32 PM.
Seems like this thread spilled over to Macleod trail
@CTVPKrauskopf: Police backup called in after tension escalates between Israeli and Palestinian supporters at downtown rally. #yyc http://t.co/5xMstuOi99
She was reassigned to Russia as well after calling them scum after they threatened her and told her to stop video taping them.
She was being honest. what scum.
Yes , but CNN can't have there reporters showing Bias. That is why they keep taking her away from the situation. If she's not carful she's going to lose her Job. She has to remember she's not on Fox
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