Flames STH meeting

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by nik-

They may feel better, but no, there is no evidence they are better protected. I'd be curious to see these hit stats, and the sample size would be too small to assume the cause as a goon in the lineup.

The one thing I did notice was our opponents ran our goalie a whole lot less than they did before we had grats and westgarth. With Burke talking about a top 8 bottom 4 or top 9 bottom 3 strategy I really wonder if we see a line of Westgarth-Wolf-Mcgratton

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by nik-

They may feel better, but no, there is no evidence they are better protected. I'd be curious to see these hit stats, and the sample size would be too small to assume the cause as a goon in the lineup.

I presume the kids will feel better with a goon or two regardless whether or not the goons are effective. Protection real or not, psychological effect is very real, no? If the kids feel good, don't they usually play better?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

I presume the kids will feel better with a goon or two regardless whether or not the goons are effective. Protection real or not, psychological effect is very real, no? If the kids feel good, don't they usually play better?

Sure, but that doesn't mean they're less likely to get run.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by nik-

They may feel better, but no, there is no evidence they are better protected. I'd be curious to see these hit stats, and the sample size would be too small to assume the cause as a goon in the lineup.

This is the affect we're looking for though. Giving the team confidence to go into corners, confidence that if they are cheap-shotted it will be answered, and confidence that this huge dude has their back no matter what.

Whether it curbs hitting or not is not really the idea. If he gives your players the confidence to play with reckless abandon, their role is fullfilled IMO. And judging by what the players and coaches say, a guy like McGrattan positively affects the mood of the team on and off the ice. That is worth $750k.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by nik-

Sure, but that doesn't mean they're less likely to get run.

Absolutely, I agree it doesn't mean they're less likely to get run down. I wasn't trying to disagree about that. I just meant that it's not that protection attribute we necessarily want in a goon, it's a the psychological safety the kids feel.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by MattyC

This is the affect we're looking for though. Giving the team confidence to go into corners, confidence that if they are cheap-shotted it will be answered, and confidence that this huge dude has their back no matter what.

Whether it curbs hitting or not is not really the idea. If he gives your players the confidence to play with reckless abandon, their role is fullfilled IMO. And judging by what the players and coaches say, a guy like McGrattan positively affects the mood of the team on and off the ice. That is worth $750k.

Well I'm responding to people inferring that players aren't going to hit so and so Flames player because we have a goon in the lineup. So curbing hitting is kind of crucial to that statement.

All the positive feelings are unquantifiable, but not negative. There's just no evidence that it protects our players in any way.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

Burke has even mentioned he's not sure if Brad will trade for another 1st round pick.

I'm sure Brad's not even sure if Bard will trade for another 1st round pick. Even if he wants to, you need a partner, and the price needs to be right.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by nik-

All the positive feelings are unquantifiable, but not negative. There's just no evidence that it protects our players in any way.

Ok. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have players like this, as it is not it's only function.

And they may not protect the players the way of preventing cheap shots, but the response to cheap shots is an important part of team moral. And if some no-name call-up trying to make his name runs a Flame from behind and is subsequently pummeled by Mr McGrattan, basic common sense suggests that the guy is less likely to do it again. If you don't buy into that, then fine. It also doesn't mean that the AHL goon operates under common sense, but you like to think most people do.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Ok. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have players like this, as it is not it's only function.

And they may not protect the players the way of preventing cheap shots, but the response to cheap shots is an important part of team moral. And if some no-name call-up trying to make his name runs a Flame from behind and is subsequently pummeled by Mr McGrattan, basic common sense suggests that the guy is less likely to do it again. If you don't buy into that, then fine. It also doesn't mean that the AHL goon operates under common sense, but you like to think most people do.

Except that's usually not what happens. It's whoever is on the ice at the time that the hit occurs that starts throwing. McGrattan may challenge the guy later, but there is no need for the guy to fight McGrattan at all if he doesn't want to.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by nik-

Except that's usually not what happens. It's whoever is on the ice at the time that the hit occurs that starts throwing. McGrattan may challenge the guy later, but there is no need for the guy to fight McGrattan at all if he doesn't want to.

Yes you're right.

Personally I see McGrattan as a very valuable member of the team whether he's playing or not. I'd like to see Westgarth supplimented by a younger guy (Ferland, Wolf, whoever can). You're not going to find the value of them (or really any bottom 6 player) in the stat lines. All of those values are qualitative. What separates a guy like Bouma from a guy like Comeau? Stats would tell you not a whole lot, but observations will tell you something completely different.

People aren't just swapped out and replaced with players with similar stats or playing styles. Good people who mesh with their teammates and work hard are what you want. And I think Brian McGrattan is a good person to have on the team.

[nik-]

I will say, I like McGrattan as a 4th line player, he can put in a legit shift, and seemingly as a person. I just don't like the role and I wish it was out of the game.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by nik-

They may feel better, but no, there is no evidence they are better protected. I'd be curious to see these hit stats, and the sample size would be too small to assume the cause as a goon in the lineup.

So your position is that it doesn't help and can't help, but any evidence that says it might is statistically insignicant?

Is there any evidence behind your position that it doesn't help?

Just curious, it wasn't my post originally but I think this is a logical inconsistency.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

At this stage they are trying not to have a Sven 2.0 occurring. Burke mentioned last night that the previous regime liked to hype prospects and that got the fans all riled up. Look at how far Sven has fallen from being the future franchise player to longer term project/top 6 forward.

This regime I think is going to under promise and over deliver when it relates to handling the prospects.

And I am all for that, however to be frank, I don't even Sven possesses some of the gifts that Gaudreau has. Also Gaudreau has the kind of consistency like few other junior players I've seen. I know, hype. We've heard that before, right.

But Sven was always a potential top 6er, but never a surefire franchise player. He was overhyped because he was the first forward in many years with even that level of talent to come in and score a couple goals in his first handful of games with the team. It didn't mean he was 100% ready for the league, or that he was destined to be a top player in the league. We just finally had a kid come in who could legitimately be a part of the future core of the team and people were amped about it.

Personally, I don't think even then I predicted him to be an elite producer. I predicted a 50-60 point winger as an NHLer (from what I recall). Don't know what everyone else's expectations were.

While Gaudreau and Sven both have high end skill, Johnny I believe is a step ahead in terms of IQ, consistency from game to game, and maturity, which comes from a 3 solid years on a college team with a coaching staff that have seemingly gone a long way towards helping him (as he has stated many times). Sven meanwhile was rushed into the league, sustained injuries, has been bounced around and hasn't had the right environment and time for maturation like JG has in BC.

I think it's a different circumstance. However, that's up to the coaching staff and management to decide.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

So your position is that it doesn't help and can't help, but any evidence that says it might is statistically insignicant?

Is there any evidence behind your position that it doesn't help?

Just curious, it wasn't my post originally but I think this is a logical inconsistency.

I'm saying a difference between one season and the next is not statistically significant enough to be credited to a goon. An extended timeframe of similar players in a similar system with and without a goon in the lineup would show if this is an actual cause.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by nik-

I will say, I like McGrattan as a 4th line player, he can put in a legit shift, and seemingly as a person. I just don't like the role and I wish it was out of the game.

See, I think you're pigeonholing him (and Burke/Treliving's comments) into a category and ignoring the other good parts of his game (yes he can actually play decent hockey).

I don't think Burke/Treliving want players like Godard or Boogaard (RIP) who are just out there stumbling around pummeling whoever they can use for balance, they want players that can play the game and add toughness to the lineup. Guys that come at you and finish their checks over and over again. Guys that will stand up for teammates. If Byron was 6 inches taller he would be beautiful in this role. But I think their more looking at guys like Jordan Nolan, Brian Boyle, Andrew Shaw, Brian Bickel type players when they talk about adding toughness.

McGrattan himself doesn't really fit that role as he doesn't have the scoring touch, but I still feel hes a good guy to take in and out of the line-up depending on who the opponent is.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by MattyC

See, I think you're pigeonholing him (and Burke/Treliving's comments) into a category and ignoring the other good parts of his game (yes he can actually play decent hockey).

I don't think Burke/Treliving want players like Godard or Boogaard (RIP) who are just out there stumbling around pummeling whoever they can use for balance, they want players that can play the game and add toughness to the lineup. Guys that come at you and finish their checks over and over again. Guys that will stand up for teammates. If Byron was 6 inches taller he would be beautiful in this role. But I think their more looking at guys like Jordan Nolan, Brian Boyle, Andrew Shaw, Brian Bickel type players when they talk about adding toughness.

McGrattan himself doesn't really fit that role as he doesn't have the scoring touch, but I still feel hes a good guy to take in and out of the line-up depending on who the opponent is.

I think we're confusing team 'toughness' with fighting. If a team starts running your smaller skill players, you run their smaller skill players. That will stop it.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Rick M.

I think we're confusing team 'toughness' with fighting. If a team starts running your smaller skill players, you run their smaller skill players. That will stop it.

Or escalate it to the point where Brian McKracken needs to be released!

Yeah I agree. The need for "toughness" does not equate to the need for mindless goons. It equates to needing players who not only buy into a hard-working, hard-hitting system, but those who can execute it at a high level.

[FeyWest]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Or escalate it to the point where Brian McKracken needs to be released!

Yeah I agree. The need for "toughness" does not equate to the need for mindless goons. It equates to needing players who not only buy into a hard-working, hard-hitting system, but those who can execute it at a high level.

I second what you guys are referring and Kent Wilson over on Flames Nation said it best when he said that the goal should be to have "Functional Toughness" and to "Stop elevating player Category over player Quality"

[united]

Be careful taking anything from him too seriously as Wilson appears to legitimately believe character, leadership, coaching, practice, gym time, or any other intangible makes no difference. Maybe he doesn't - he says he believes they make some difference - but at every opportunity he turns around and mocks any suggestion of them, so who knows really? McGrattan may suck at hockey, badly, but he brings a ton of character to the room which must have some effect given the glowing reviews from teammates.


This article, by Justin Bourne, is fantastic:
Why players willing to be first in on the puck are the toughest in Hockey

“Toughness” in hockey is valued to a borderline comical degree, but amongst the majority of hockey people the concept is often misunderstood. It’s not just fans who associate the trait with knuckle-hucking face-punchers, meaning somehow guys like Brian McGrattan have NHL jobs. True hockey toughness, the kind that really matters, is found in the players who are willing to win races to pucks.
...
And, if you think about a guy like Patrice Bergeron, one of hockey’s best play drivers, you’ll note that winning those races to the touch has consequences. When you look at him in playoffs last year - a broken rib, torn cartilage, a separated shoulder, and a pneumothorax – you understand there’s a cost for always having the stones to be the first guy on the puck. You get hit. You get hit, and you get hit, and you get hit. And getting hit hurts. It takes the wind out of you, it saps your energy, and you can get injured. It’s real easy to be the second guy in on a puck race, rattle the glass and get that crowd roaring. Nobody roars for the touch.
If you’re a hockey team that lacks toughness, you shouldn’t be looking to add raw size, or a fighter, or anything of the sort. You need players, no matter their size, who are tough enough to take those hits to make those plays. Hockey games are decided by five or ten plays that often come down to an inch, or a “barely.” The problem is, you rarely know when you’re in one of those moments. So all you can do is be first on the puck over, and over, and over again. The guys who commit to doing that are the league’s toughest players.

[FBI]

We KNOW Johnny is small. Give it a rest already Burke. So annoying.