Ukraine Presidential Crackdown Violence. Russia Invades Ukraine

[undercoverbrother]

If this is true and shooting has started, it won't stop till Russia eats up all of Ukraine.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Russia should not have a seat on the security council

There are no mechanics in place to remove permanent members.

China should have been tossed years ago based on their human rights record

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There are no mechanics in place to remove permanent members.

China should have been tossed years ago based on their human rights record

I agree, too bad their isn't.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Didn't work well with Cuba and Castro

Well we still have our base there and didn't have to invade and force a fake election through to give it "legitimacy"

I have no ill will towards you Pointman, I will never have ill will towards a citizen of a country. However your government is terrible, I know out government here is a joke too but good lord, we didn't invade Quebec to protect them from Canada...

[TKB]

I have a hard time agreeing with anything pro Russian at this time. My distaste for them is through the roof and I hope they get a little something called Karma in the near future.

[northcrunk]

From BBC's live stream:

18:58:
A group of armed men in Russian military uniform has abducted the commander of a military unit of Ukraine's Foreign Intelligence Service in Yalta, the service's press office reports. Col Ihor Losnykov was reportedly attacked outside his house and driven away in a black Mercedes. He is the commander of the Foreign Intelligence Service's unit near the town of Alushta, which was seized by armed individuals several days ago.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Pointman

BBC article got it right if you read the actual article. Options were to join Russia or to get a greater autonomy WITHIN Ukraine.

Again this is a deceptive vote as there is no choice for NO change. There is no difference between the 1992 constitution of Ukraine and the current one on articles concerning Crimea in Chapter X of the Ukrainian constitution. Crimea is almost completely autonomous and already determines their own laws (if not contrary to Ukrainian laws). They already determine all laws that are to be executed within Crimea, they choose their own leaders, property rules, resource, agriculture, forestry, land, tourism, roadworks, fishing, wildlife, health care, budgeting, language use, etc. The only things they did not have control over were their foreign policy, environmental laws, tax law, recognizing the Ukrainian leader as the figure head of Crimea, normative subservience to not contradict Ukrainian law/criminal courts and having to go through Ukrainian constitutional courts for changes towards their own constitutionality as per articles 137. Any changes for greater autonomy would have defacto made them an independent state not bound to Ukrainian authority. Independent country that is Ukrainian in name only.

Basically the vote was designed to have no other choice but to keep that naval base at Sevastopol regardless of Ukrainian central authority wishes.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its no long about Putin acting tough. In the last year we've seen a pretty obvious shift in global strength, and I'm not blaming it all on Obama.

But twice now Putin has stared the American's in the face and he hasn't flinched and he's taken the path of what some would consider to be most resistant. And he's won both times.

Waving the flag of sanction in his face isn't scaring him off, nor is the threat of limited military power which seems to be an American creation.

With the emergence in China and the emergence of Russia in Europe and Asia respectively. with the reconfiguration of the Chinese Military from a more defensive army/navy/airforce hiding behind a Nuclear umbrella to a more robust power projection military (Construction of carriers, new quieter subs, Amphibious landing craft). And the reconfiguration and what many are arguing as the professionalization of the Russian Military, the States is starting to look like the weaker and less interested Super Power and starting a slow retreat back across the ocean.

Could we be heading back to the post WW1 isolationist America movement?

Are the Russians winning a new cold war?

Orson Scott Card wrote Ender's Game in 1985, yet the power structure of today's world is shaping up eerily similar to how he described it in the book (even more so in the Bean series of books). I'm half expecting to get invaded by the Buggers any day now

[northcrunk]

More from BBC:

19:16:
More than 15,000 Nato troops are training in the Arctic Circle this week. Following the West's withdrawal from Afghanistan, the military alliance is conducting the same "winter warfare" drills that were used during the Cold War. The exercise, which was planned before tensions sparked in Crimea, is taking place in northern Norway near the Russian border, the BBC's Anna Holligan says.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Russia should not have a seat on the security council

They kind of have to have one and its probably best that they do. In the end its likely more beneficial just to keep them at the table following most of the rules as opposed to being off on their own and doing whatever they want completely unchecked.

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Orson Scott Card wrote Ender's Game in 1985, yet the power structure of today's world is shaping up eerily similar to how he described it in the book (even more so in the Bean series of books). I'm half expecting to get invaded by the Buggers any day now

In the grand scheme of things it might not be a bad plan to welcome them with open arms.

[FlameOn]

Russia attack on Ukrainian military base kills it's first Ukrainian soldier. Ukraine responds by authorizing their soldiers free fire if attacked
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26637296

[Locke]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Russia attack on Ukrainian military base kills it's first Ukrainian soldier. Ukraine responds by authorizing their soldiers free fire if attacked
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26637296

That is not wise. Are they serious?

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by nik-

I don't see Harper shooting a rifle as a problem, and Bush was mocked endlessly for his GI Joe appearance on that Aircraft carrier.

As far as history yes, Crimea has history, but Germany has history in Danzig, and other parts of Poland. Mexico has history in California. A lot of countries have historical territories that they no longer control. The world progresses and history is history for a reason, stop acting like a bitch over it. The Russians have had TWENTY years to resolve their Black Sea naval base issue, and didn't, and now they did this.

Kaliningrad ..... So do the Germans have the right to go back in there?

I bet pointman and his soviet government would say otherwise

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Locke

Old Age Anschluss!

Haha! Detroit is practically already part of Southern Ontario. At this point I think most Americans would be looking the other way and just hoping we keep it....

I don't know if you want that slum, Detroit is rough rough town. Maybe if you guys take it and got rid of the corrupt government officials it may turn around.

[northcrunk]

The was also a pro-russian millitia men killed according to crimean news (dont trust 100%) they said the shots were fired from a building likely by a sniper. Seems like there may be a bit of insurgency there.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

The was also a pro-russian millitia men killed according to crimean news (dont trust 100%) they said the shots were fired from a building likely by a sniper. Seems like there may be a bit of insurgency there.

Any news out of Crimea should be taken with a grain of salt... just like the polls, and how they really want to be russian...

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Any news out of Crimea should be taken with a grain of salt... just like the polls, and how they really want to be russian...

For sure +1

[northcrunk]

bbc:

19:30:
Armed attackers used the commander of a Ukrainian military unit in Simferopol as a live shield to gain access to the building in the same incident in which a warrant officer sustained fatal gunshot wounds, according to Vladyslav Seleznyov, a spokesman for the Ukrainian Defence Ministry, who was speaking live over the phone with broadcaster 5 Kanal. (BBC Monitoring)

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PIMking

I don't know if you want that slum, Detroit is rough rough town. Maybe if you guys take it and got rid of the corrupt government officials it may turn around.

We'd just let the guys from Windsor run it. I say give them a couple of years and if things dont get better we start building a wall...

[Plett25]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its no long about Putin acting tough. In the last year we've seen a pretty obvious shift in global strength, and I'm not blaming it all on Obama.

But twice now Putin has stared the American's in the face and he hasn't flinched and he's taken the path of what some would consider to be most resistant. And he's won both times.

He's won? We're 3 weeks into this situation... there is absolutely no way of knowing if Putin has won.

In mid September 1968, everyone concluded that the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia had ended liberalization in Eastern Europe, but fast forward 20 years and the Berlin Wall comes down and Communism is in the final stages of a death spiral.

Five weeks after invading Iraq in 2003, W. gave his "Mission Accomplished" speech. But I think we can all agree that things didn't go exactly to plan in the following decade.

How is this going to turn out for Putin? I don't know, but IMO he's swimming against the tide of history. He's trying to re-set history to where Russia's muscle could be flexed in Eastern Europe without consequence, to where nations acted without regard to the wishes of their trading partners and to where censorship was tolerable (or even possible)

Earlier you said

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Who ever planned this out did one hell of a bang up job.

Basically its over, Putin will leverage his energy exports to keep the West in Line.

If Putin attempts to leverage energy exports, he's starting a trade war with the west. The EU and the US each have a GDP of around 16 trillion, Japan is around 6 trillion and if you round up, Russia is around 3 trillion. Who's going to win a trade war? The $38 trillion dollar side or the $3 trillion dollar side?

Russia's economy is already slipping into recession, and "leveraging" energy exports will only accelerate and deepen the recession.

Putin is acting like George W. Bush, he's full of bravado, but appears ignorant of long term consequences of his actions. Actually, Putin is stupid-er than Bush, he's invading and destabilizing his next door neighbour... at least Bush had the sense to screw up a country on the other side of the world.