Refugees and Refugee Claimants To Be Denied Healthcare By Harper Government

[Fire]

Originally Posted by zuluking

Now back to our regularly scheduled overreactions.

Nah, it would be easier for the anti-Harper sheep to ignore the facts.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by zuluking

I wish everyone would actually read the document before going on about the horror and travesty. The example provided by StreetPharmacist is covered by the term "essential nature". The definition is:
....

Now back to our regularly scheduled overreactions.

Thank you for the clarification.

Unfortunately the article indicated otherwise, so I would hardly call it an over reaction given the information that we had. Could you provide a link to whatever document you are quoting?

The new policy is set to take effect at the end of June. It means many refugee claimants will only be treated if they have an infection or disease that poses a risk to public health.

Originally Posted by Fire

Nah, it would be easier for the anti-Harper sheep to ignore the facts.

While I appreciate your sound logic and reasoning, I can assure you that the people upset about the claims in the article were not all anti-Harper.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Thank you for the clarification.

Unfortunately the article indicated otherwise, so I would hardly call it an over reaction given the information that we had. Could you provide a link to whatever document you are quoting?

From Page 1:

Originally Posted by Makarov

SOURCE: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugee...healthcare.asp

Although I did have to click on additional time to get here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/departm...olicy/ifhp.asp

Which makes me wonder if those docs in Toronto are either a. ignorant or b. politically-motivated. Either way, it doesn't say much for them.

[-TC-]

Canada needs to get tougher on immigration and refugees who are exploiting the system period, this is a positive step.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Canada needs to get tougher on immigration and refugees who are exploiting the system period, this is a positive step.

No, we should open up our country to anyone who needs help, regardless of how much it will cost us.

In all seriousness, I find the comments in this thread about how we shouldn't keep people that have pre-existing conditions from receiving proper health care all fine and dandy, but the fact still remains that we can't afford to constantly have people exploiting our 'welfare' system without actually contributing back into society at some point.

A lot of people have come to Canada as refugees and have received care, and in the end they got jobs, started a family, and paid taxes like everyone else. I have no problem with that, and considering the labour shortage, and the fact that a lot of Canadians seem to have a problem with physical work, I would gladly accept more refugees and immigrants who are willing to work a little harder to make things work.

But, when a 70 year man that needs thousands of dollars in health care comes to Canada from Europe as a refugee, I have a hard time accepting that considering there are numerous European countries that could help him too.

[VO #23]

Originally Posted by Azure

No, we should open up our country to anyone who needs help, regardless of how much it will cost us.

In all seriousness, I find the comments in this thread about how we shouldn't keep people that have pre-existing conditions from receiving proper health care all fine and dandy, but the fact still remains that we can't afford to constantly have people exploiting our 'welfare' system without actually contributing back into society at some point.

A lot of people have come to Canada as refugees and have received care, and in the end they got jobs, started a family, and paid taxes like everyone else. I have no problem with that, and considering the labour shortage, and the fact that a lot of Canadians seem to have a problem with physical work, I would gladly accept more refugees and immigrants who are willing to work a little harder to make things work.

But, when a 70 year man that needs thousands of dollars in health care comes to Canada from Europe as a refugee, I have a hard time accepting that considering there are numerous European countries that could help him too.

How many 70-year old refugees come to Canada with massive pre-existing conditions? Hell, how many 70-year olds are even alive in a place like Somalia, let alone make it out of the country to Canada as a refugee?

You guys are cooking up these ridiculous and far-fetched examples and throwing them about a) as if they are categorical facts, and b) as if they make up a substantial number of the refugees who come into the country. I'm sure there aren't statistics kept on how old the refugees are and what their medical condition is upon arrival, but we do have a ballpark figure of what health services to refugees costs Canadians, and it's about 75 cents per Canadian. Peanuts.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by tenyardrambo

refugee or born canadian...everyone should get the same health care, no exceptions

Fine, but why are Canadians not getting the extra benefits they are getting?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I think this raises a valid point, just not about the health care aspect of it.

If there are places we would never, or rarely accept a refugee claimant from, we should group all of those places together and have all of their claims fast tracked so they get quickly rejected (or accepted in rare case).

Then countries who have a large acceptance rate, like was stated earlier - 90% for Somalia could be kept in the regular queue and be accepted at the normal rate.

Then you don't have so many people waiting for claims, and you are giving this health care to people who will, quite likely, be staying in Canada and using our health care anyway.

Kind of solves both problems people are having - unless they just don't want refugees and immigrants here, but that's another story.

Thats the plan. In June the new system is suppose to kick in.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by VO #23

How many 70-year old refugees come to Canada with massive pre-existing conditions? Hell, how many 70-year olds are even alive in a place like Somalia, let alone make it out of the country to Canada as a refugee?

You guys are cooking up these ridiculous and far-fetched examples and throwing them about a) as if they are categorical facts, and b) as if they make up a substantial number of the refugees who come into the country. I'm sure there aren't statistics kept on how old the refugees are and what their medical condition is upon arrival, but we do have a ballpark figure of what health services to refugees costs Canadians, and it's about 75 cents per Canadian. Peanuts.

He said 70 year olds from Europe not Somalia. If you read the link I posted the top source country is Hungary.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by VO #23

but we do have a ballpark figure of what health services to refugees costs Canadians, and it's about 75 cents per Canadian. Peanuts.

This type of thinking is the reason Europe is in such dire economical straights.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

This type of thinking is the reason Europe is in such dire economical straights.

No, its really not. I am so tired of hearing how we're the next Europe, or we will be. Europe is in the trouble its in for a lot of reasons, primarily is the monetary union without fiscal/political union to go along with it. Don't let that get in the way of a good line though.

[VO #23]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

He said 70 year olds from Europe not Somalia. If you read the link I posted the top source country is Hungary.

My mistake. But the point still stands, if you want to be pedantic. How many 70 year old Hungarians with failing livers and the like are getting into Canada for the purposes of abusing our health care system? We have no idea, it's impossible to speculate an accurate number, but likely it's pretty low. We do have a good idea of what the whole operation costs. And considering our GDP and overall economic strength, it isn't very much, especially if/when the refugees as a whole get onto their feet and start paying into the system.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Slava

No, its really not. I am so tired of hearing how we're the next Europe, or we will be. Europe is in the trouble its in for a lot of reasons, primarily is the monetary union without fiscal/political union to go along with it. Don't let that get in the way of a good line though.

Actually, it is a lot of the reason. Greece is bankrupt because they funded every social program under the sun, not because of the Euro. Britain is pretty much in the same vote and as you know they still have their own currency. There are many factors as to why Europe is in the position that it is in, a major one being socialist policies that go un-checked and unfunded.

Now of course I don't expect you to agree with this given your left leaning beliefs but that is your choice.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by VO #23

My mistake. But the point still stands, if you want to be pedantic. How many 70 year old Hungarians with failing livers and the like are getting into Canada for the purposes of abusing our health care system? We have no idea, it's impossible to speculate an accurate number, but likely it's pretty low. We do have a good idea of what the whole operation costs. And considering our GDP and overall economic strength, it isn't very much, especially if/when the refugees as a whole get onto their feet and start paying into the system.

That's the problem though, the majority of people making refugee claims in Canada do not end up being found refugees. They are usually economic migrants or those looking to find a better social program.

If Canada truely wanted to support real refugees, we would increase our government sponsored refugee program. Bring in the refugees from the camps or those being displaced. The ones who cannot pay thousands of dollars to buy secret passage into Canada.

The Sri Lankans that came to Canada on the boat all paid between $20,000 and $50,000 per person. Most had to pay a percentage up front and then were expected to repay the rest once they got to Canada. Do you know how they were expected to repay the rest? By applying to as many social programs in Canada and sending the money back to the human traffickers.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Actually, it is a lot of the reason. Greece is bankrupt because they funded every social program under the sun, not because of the Euro. Britain is pretty much in the same vote and as you know they still have their own currency. There are many factors as to why Europe is in the position that it is in, a major one being socialist policies that go un-checked and unfunded.

Now of course I don't expect you to agree with this given your left leaning beliefs but that is your choice.

This has nothing to do with my personal thoughts or ideology (which aren't as left as you might think). Greece would be in much better shape if they controlled their own fate here. They could either default or print money and keep things rolling. As it stands they're basically stuck in the middle; if they press forward with severe austerity to make their creditors happy then they face rebellion from the citizens, but if they don't the bailout money stops flowing and the country can't meet any obligations.

The right wing in North America is now fond of fear-mongering by telling us that we don't want to become the next Greece. Of course we don't. The fact is that not many of us want to end up where the US was in 2008-2009 either. They got there without the socialist policies and without regulation either.

These kinds of policies are not what leads a country to bankruptcy though. Instead this is penny-wise and pound-foolish. The Harper government would rather spend the money on fancy new jets than it would on an existing program like this. That is the kind of spending that's a problem. Long-term, large cost and maintenance for decades.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Slava

This has nothing to do with my personal thoughts or ideology (which aren't as left as you might think). Greece would be in much better shape if they controlled their own fate here. They could either default or print money and keep things rolling. As it stands they're basically stuck in the middle; if they press forward with severe austerity to make their creditors happy then they face rebellion from the citizens, but if they don't the bailout money stops flowing and the country can't meet any obligations.

The right wing in North America is now fond of fear-mongering by telling us that we don't want to become the next Greece. Of course we don't. The fact is that not many of us want to end up where the US was in 2008-2009 either. They got there without the socialist policies and without regulation either.

These kinds of policies are not what leads a country to bankruptcy though. Instead this is penny-wise and pound-foolish. The Harper government would rather spend the money on fancy new jets than it would on an existing program like this. That is the kind of spending that's a problem. Long-term, large cost and maintenance for decades.

Not to mention that people love to point at Greece and ignore the likes of Germany and Sweden.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by VO #23

My mistake. But the point still stands, if you want to be pedantic. How many 70 year old Hungarians with failing livers and the like are getting into Canada for the purposes of abusing our health care system? We have no idea, it's impossible to speculate an accurate number, but likely it's pretty low. We do have a good idea of what the whole operation costs. And considering our GDP and overall economic strength, it isn't very much, especially if/when the refugees as a whole get onto their feet and start paying into the system.

Not sure what point you're trying to make.

All I'm saying is that I have no problem with refugees being accepted and being provided with health care. But I do have a problem with people exploiting the fact that we give out free health care. There needs to be measures put into place to stop that exploit from happening. Seems like that is what the plan is.

Everyone is over-reacting without even realizing what the actual 'laws' that will be put into place are.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

That's the problem though, the majority of people making refugee claims in Canada do not end up being found refugees. They are usually economic migrants or those looking to find a better social program.

If Canada truely wanted to support real refugees, we would increase our government sponsored refugee program. Bring in the refugees from the camps or those being displaced. The ones who cannot pay thousands of dollars to buy secret passage into Canada.

The Sri Lankans that came to Canada on the boat all paid between $20,000 and $50,000 per person. Most had to pay a percentage up front and then were expected to repay the rest once they got to Canada. Do you know how they were expected to repay the rest? By applying to as many social programs in Canada and sending the money back to the human traffickers.

Exactly. For some reason everyone is sticking their head into the sand and ignoring what is actually happening, and what these laws will ACTUALLY do.

Like I said before, its all fine and dandy to say we won't refuse treatment to anyone with a pre-existing condition, but in reality you can't allow people like the Sri Lankans to continually exploit our generous welfare system. It might not cost much now, but it is still a problem now, which makes it a perfect time to deal with.

But of course, we can't become like the US, so let everyone in! Free healthcare for all!

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Slava

This has nothing to do with my personal thoughts or ideology (which aren't as left as you might think). Greece would be in much better shape if they controlled their own fate here. They could either default or print money and keep things rolling. As it stands they're basically stuck in the middle; if they press forward with severe austerity to make their creditors happy then they face rebellion from the citizens, but if they don't the bailout money stops flowing and the country can't meet any obligations.

The right wing in North America is now fond of fear-mongering by telling us that we don't want to become the next Greece. Of course we don't. The fact is that not many of us want to end up where the US was in 2008-2009 either. They got there without the socialist policies and without regulation either.

These kinds of policies are not what leads a country to bankruptcy though. Instead this is penny-wise and pound-foolish. The Harper government would rather spend the money on fancy new jets than it would on an existing program like this. That is the kind of spending that's a problem. Long-term, large cost and maintenance for decades.

The problems caused in 08 in the US were much different than what happened in Greece, yet their current spending problems as very similar to Greece. The are spending more than they have. Yes, not on social programs but on other programs, mostly military. At the end of the day it is the same problem, spending more than you have. In the US, they can cut military spending fairly easy, in Greece, when you have a society built on expected social programs, not so easy to cut. This is evident in all the riots and government collapses going on.

The last bolded part: This is a type response I see from the left. Why is Harper spending money on jets. Do you know how many hospitals that could build? Do you know how many teacher that could hire? We are going to need new jets, that is a fact. The F-18s were not built to last forever. If we as a country want to defend our social programs and our freedoms we need to have the ability to defend it. I just don't understand why you people cannot see this. But whatever, if you can't see that Canadians are being nickled and dimed to death, well, there is not much I can do. Every extra fee and tax that gets added to our bill always starts with a phrase like what we are talking about. "Why would anyone care, it's only 75 cents per person." At what point, do all the dollars and cents add up to a point where Canadians are tapped out?

[Nage Waza]

Should we start providing health care (for free) to everyone taking holidays in Canada? Everyone must be treated equally, if they are in Canada, no matter what. At least that is what I am reading in this thread from many posters.
Where do we draw the line? My wife got very sick once in Mexico and again in the US and we had to pay for medical help both times. Why is that so hard to fathom in Canada?