wikileaks.org releases classified US military video depicting killing of civilians

[FurnaceFace]

It's a really bad event and something which hopefully happens very very infrequently. I think though, as we sit in our houses and offices and watch this video in the calm of the day and with the arrows pointing out who is who, we need to understand it's a different environment than actually being there.

Originally Posted by flip

We can understand scenarios in which mistakes like this could happen and then it becomes slightly more forgivable. My biggest problem was the callousness with which the soldiers talked and how excited they were to be able to kill these people. They shouldn't want to open fire if they can help it. Begging to be able to engage? that reeks of psychopaths who joined the army to waste crazy muslims.

Depends how you interpret their comments. In my mind the callousness comes from training. I've not been a soldier however from seeing similar videos to this and from talking to friends who have served, you end up with a certain amount of disconnection. They aren't people, they are insurgents or the enemy. I think soldiers are only effective when there is a certain amount of de-humanizing done. As a result, I think it also takes a certain type of person who is best suited for this activity. I have no clue if I'd be able to be one of these people but I doubt it. I still have sad memories of killing a baby bird with a BB gun when I was 10.

Say all you want about the horribleness of war and how it dehumanizes them and how they deal with it by acting like that but nothing, nothing makes up for laughing when you just murdered a child.

Have you ever laughed at a friend who wiped out only to realize a bit later that he was actually hurt? Or where people will initially cheer a big hockey hit until they realize the player was knocked out? Same sort of human reaction likely occurs.

I don't recall any laughing after they found out about the kids. I recall one saying something like they shouldn't bring kids to a battle. Again, it's a hard thing to watch and the comments taken in our context are hard to accept.

And the way they begged like a horny teenager trying to get into a girls pants when they wanted to engage was sickening. Rationalizing horrible acts you are forced into is one thing. Begging to be able to commit them is another entirely.

I interpreted the comments more as "come on, give us permission to fire as the guys are going to get away." They were wanting permission to engage because they had the opportunity to do what they were sent there for. Letting the van get away in their eyes would have been a failure as they were insurgents and if they got away maybe tomorrow they'd attack the Apache or some of the other forces. Killing them now gets rid of the threat. That's what war is, and that's why it's horrible.

It was the wrong thing to do, and the soldiers perhaps made a bad call or an error in judgment and they have to live with it. I can't imagine what sort of hell you'd put yourself through if you thought you killed innocents instead of fighters. It would haunt me.

The video does show some of the people are carrying what even to my civilian eye are AK-47s. I don't see evidence of them shooting the guns, but I see the guns.

In videos such as this where certain things are pointed out or highlighted I find it worth noting the weapons are not pointed out by the people who point out the cameras. I have to conclude whoever released the video did so for a reason and I think the truth of the situation is somewhere between what the military says and what we see on the video. I too would be interested to see the video starting maybe 30 minutes before the incident took place and 30 minutes after to get as much of the context as possible.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't know, I don't know if they knew the helicopter was there until it closed range. Modern gunships aren't like the older helicopter gunships that you could hear coming miles away.

They could have been used to seeing U.S. helicopter gunships flying over constantly.

I couldn't tell you what they experienced on the ground.

They must have been pretty far away. There is a substantial delay between the gunfire sound and the bullet impacts. And those things have a crazy muzzle velocity.

After watching video, I could see how mistakes were made. However, joking about popping dead bodies under the tires, and the cold comments about bringing your children to a battle really make these guys looks like sickos. Its like the US military trains these guys to view these people as animals or some sort of lower form of life.

As much as I disagree with the whole Middle Eastern way of life and politics, I would be very curious how the US would handle a similar occupation should a military super power invade their country and way of life. I for one can assure you I would be out in the streets fighting an occupation / invasion force should Canada be in thwe same position one day. Yes war was waged on 9/11, but an entire nation of people with what we view as backwards beliefs, is paying for the actions of a small, extreme bunch of religious zealots.

I suppose we will find out sometime in the next 50 years when China finally decides to take over the world how the US handles an occupation.... book it.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Russic

Man that was hard to watch. I understand the outrage of course, but I can see the situation from the soldier's side as well. This is why decisions to go to war can't be taken lightly.

Makes me think about my wife's little cousin. Last time I saw him he was just a little kid at a wedding running around playing tag. This weekend I saw a facebook post from him that he's among the last groups to go over to Afghanistan and he's incredibly excited to "kill some muslims". Him and a friend were going back and forth saying who they're going to dedicate their first kill to. Reading that has really bothered me. This video didn't help.

He shouldnt be going with that attitude. No offense but I hope if he does kill one he lives with regret for the rest of his life.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

He shouldnt be going with that attitude. No offense but I hope if he does kill one he lives with regret for the rest of his life.

I agree with this. There's a difference in what I talked about which could be gallow humor. And what this young man is talking about.

[pylon]

One other thing, isn't there something in the Geneva conventions about firing upon rescuers or already downed men?

The Geneva Conventions comprise rules that apply in times of armed conflict and seek to protect people who are not or are no longer taking part in hostilities, for example:

wounded or sick fighters
prisoners of war
civilians
medical and religious personnel

I think this situation would qualify?

[CaptainCrunch]

Usually the Geneva Convention is based around Uniform combat, I'm not sure if it would apply here.

But I'm weak on my Geneva.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Usually the Geneva Convention is based around Uniform combat, I'm not sure if it would apply here.

But I'm weak on my Geneva.

Fair enough, but I guess civilians would qualify here.

wounded or sick fighters
prisoners of war
civilians
medical and religious personnel

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by pylon

Fair enough, but I guess civilians would qualify here.

wounded or sick fighters
prisoners of war
civilians
medical and religious personnel

I think this situation would qualify?

Possibly, but civilians in a area with armed civilians, going to the aid of a suspected insurgent?

Not sure

[pylon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Possibly, but civilians in a area with armed civilians, going to the aid of a suspected insurgent?

Not sure

Either way that was very disturbing to watch. Also firing on a man crawling on the ground and bleeding to death seems to be pretty spineless.

Not that it is a valid comparison, but I have issues firing on downed and wounded soldiers, or sniping someone in the back in frikkin video games. Just seems like a very cowardly way to do things. Great you ripped the guy apart with a 30mm round, his guts are hanging out, and his leg has 2 extra joints in it, do you really need to finish the job to get your kill count up? What the guy gonna do to an apache probably half a kilometre away with an AK 47.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I agree with this. There's a difference in what I talked about which could be gallow humor. And what this young man is talking about.

Gallow humor is one thing. We definitely don't need Russics cousin involved in Rawanda 2.0.

[valo403]

Nothing in that video indicates an intent to engage innocent civilians, not one thing. A case of mistaken identity and very unfortuante circumstances, yes, but there's no way you can convince me that any intent exists. The soldiers thought they were engaging a threat. I'm not typically one to defent the actions of the US military, but if you're looking for someone to blame here how about the insurgents that intentionally disguise themselves as civilians and create the potential for these situations to arise.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by pylon

They must have been pretty far away. There is a substantial delay between the gunfire sound and the bullet impacts. And those things have a crazy muzzle velocity.

After watching video, I could see how mistakes were made. However, joking about popping dead bodies under the tires, and the cold comments about bringing your children to a battle really make these guys looks like sickos. Its like the US military trains these guys to view these people as animals or some sort of lower form of life.

As much as I disagree with the whole Middle Eastern way of life and politics, I would be very curious how the US would handle a similar occupation should a military super power invade their country and way of life. I for one can assure you I would be out in the streets fighting an occupation / invasion force should Canada be in thwe same position one day. Yes war was waged on 9/11, but an entire nation of people with what we view as backwards beliefs, is paying for the actions of a small, extreme bunch of religious zealots.

I suppose we will find out sometime in the next 50 years when China finally decides to take over the world how the US handles an occupation.... book it.

I don't think I could handle a job that required me to kill people unless I viewed them as such. Viewing someone you are tasked with killing as no different than yourself would likely paralyze my ability to actual carry out the job.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

So it goes...

This does seem like a scene from a modern Slaughterhouse 5.

[Rod Hockey]

And how many times have they been sitting up there with the enemy in view and ask for permission but the permission was NOT granted and they watch as a few of their own get nailed? Day in and day out they watch their own getting shot at and blown up so I can see how it sounds and looks cold but they are really fighting for their Brothers and Sisters on the ground.
The PR battle is just another weapon the bad guys use to get the upper hand and just like in Vietnam they know if they can pull at the heartstrings of the public they can slowly turn things in their favor.

We have the luxury of watching the video with the assistance of highlighted and blown up circles and the after knowledge that they where photographers but from the distance they were sitting and in the heat of the moment I can see how a long telephoto lens could be mistaken as an rbg or the shoulder strap as a gun strap and if I had my kids in that van there is know way in hell I’d drive up that freaking street!!!!!!!!!!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by valo403

Nothing in that video indicates an intent to engage innocent civilians, not one thing. A case of mistaken identity and very unfortuante circumstances, yes, but there's no way you can convince me that any intent exists. The soldiers thought they were engaging a threat. I'm not typically one to defent the actions of the US military, but if you're looking for someone to blame here how about the insurgents that intentionally disguise themselves as civilians and create the potential for these situations to arise.

I agree somewhat, but it is the cover-up that bothers me. They maintained that it was a battle against insurgents even after the fact. It doesn't give me much faith in their ability to investigate these things.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I agree somewhat, but it is the cover-up that bothers me. They maintained that it was a battle against insurgents even after the fact. It doesn't give me much faith in their ability to investigate these things.

Agreed, not a fan of the post incident handling at all.

[Jetsfan]

John Connor: We're not gonna make it, are we? People, I mean.
The Terminator: It's in your nature to destroy yourselves.
John Connor: Yeah. Major drag, huh?

[wooohooo]

Originally Posted by valo403

Agreed, not a fan of the post incident handling at all.

Of course the moral high ground is to say 'we ffed up, killed innocent civilians' but to the higher ups who are in the war, I don't think they want their soldiers going to jail for something they thought was right.

Looking at the video, it looked like they were very high up and zoomed in as close as they could. From their distance it was fuzzy but I could see how they saw AK-47's. But the guy hiding behind a wall with his camera, at that time I'm sure all of us if we were the pilots would think he was holding an RPG. The tube was long, pointed at the helicopter and he was going for cover.

I'm not sure what the 'normal' protocol for confirmation to engage is but I sure hope it's better than that.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Then the van shows up to pick up bodies and as soon as they start collecting weapons (Pilot stated) they become pretty suspicious. and the pilots request and receive permission to fire.

It is a goddamned awful thing to watch, but I understand the actions behind it.

Is there not some sort of code/rule protecting medical evacuation vehicles? How is this not comparable to opening fire on an ambulance?

[wooohooo]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Is there not some sort of code/rule protecting medical evacuation vehicles? How is this not comparable to opening fire on an ambulance?

I think it probably has to do with the vehicle not being marked.