Canadian Muslim Group calls for Burka Ban

[Regulator75]

^^^ Makes me sick.

[Joborule]

Frickin psychos man.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by Tyler

Banning things is just as bad as enforcing that they wear them.

It's a free country. If you want to cover your body up, then go for it. It's not hurting my feelings.

The thing is, most Muslim women don't have a choice, they have to wear it, or else someones going to get a beating.

[Mad Mel]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

The thing is, most Muslim women don't have a choice, they have to wear it, or else someones going to get a beating.

They won't have a choice after it's been banned, either. It's just the lawmakers infringing their rights instead of their religion.

It's not like taking away a garment of clothing is going to do anything to change the subservient role that some Muslim women are forced into, and the abuse they withstand. Banning burqas would be a move to make ourselves feel good and give the pretense of showing action while doing nothing about the actual problem.

[EDBTZ12]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

The thing is, most Muslim women don't have a choice, they have to wear it, or else someones going to get a beating.

This statement is absolute garbage.

I'm a muslim and no one forces anyone to wear a hijab. It is mostly due to culture than it has to do with religion. None of my four sisters or mother wears a hijab and no one in my family has ever got a "beating"

It's their choice to wear it or not just like it's a catholics choice to become a nun or a Jewish persons choice to wear the jewish cap on their head.

I dont like getting into pissing matches about religion but if you're gonna make a bold statement like that atleast know what you are talking about.

[Mad Mel]

Originally Posted by EDBTZ12

It is mostly due to culture than it has to do with religion.

That's a good point, and I apologise for my previous post saying that it was their religion which forced women to wear one. It's not like I didn't know that, considering that none of the Muslim women I know wear one.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by EDBTZ12

This statement is absolute garbage.

I'm a muslim and no one forces anyone to wear a hijab. It is mostly due to culture than it has to do with religion. None of my four sisters or mother wears a hijab and no one in my family has ever got a "beating"

It's their choice to wear it or not just like it's a catholics choice to become a nun or a Jewish persons choice to wear the jewish cap on their head.

I dont like getting into pissing matches about religion but if you're gonna make a bold statement like that atleast know what you are talking about.

Thats why living in a free secular society where individual rights are respected is so great, unlike say in theocracies where its often repressive and these are the areas where women are pressured.

Like I said before no one should be forced to wear or told they can't wear these religious items.

[killer_carlson]

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...t=80278&page=5

like was brought up in that thread, each week is another attack on organized religion, by the same people, the entire time trying to frame it under some holier-than-thou crap. We could almost even have a drop down box where you guys can just click your same recycled arguments.

Do I agree with controlling women? Absolutely not.
Do I agree with honour killings? Absolutely not.
Do I agree with any radicalism? Nope.

Do I agree with using radical behaviours to paint an entire group with a broad brush, week after week after week?

No way.

My challenge is to people who are tired of muslims being painted with this picture to step up next week when these guys go after catholicism again, or the mormons, or the jews, or whomever the flavour du jour is.

[Thor]

sigh.

[killer_carlson]

Thor, I was thinking the same thing...

[Thor]

Well this topic, ironically is about Canada where most of us live, and oddly enough was about a Muslim group wanting a ban on burka's.

Which most of us, the 'haters' of religion agreed was wrong. Its a relevant topic, to our society, and not sure how this should be ignored or not discussed. Maybe you can enlighten us with a list of approved topics.

The Vatican discussion about them trying to deflect and not so subtly call homosexuality the problem when it comes to the child abuse was not only worthy of discussion but I'd be surprised if anyone thinks that was a blanket attack on Catholics but a clear angry response to the Vatican for such an outrageous statement.

Sure there are just blanket attacks on religious belief, its a minority, there is a conscientious discussion privately amongst many non religious posters here and even mods to keep it to a 'dull roar'

Its about arguing points, arguing not 'religion sucks' but anti gay marriage sucks, anti birth control sucks, etc..

like was brought up in that thread, each week is another attack on organized religion, by the same people, the entire time trying to frame it under some holier-than-thou crap. We could almost even have a drop down box where you guys can just click your same recycled arguments.

You seem to clump a response to a ridiculous official Vatican statement to being "we hate catholics."

Apparently you know our minds

Do I agree with using radical behaviours to paint an entire group with a broad brush, week after week after week?

No way.

Or paint an entire group of posters thats involved in debates about religion or religious policies? Just making sure.

My challenge is to people who are tired of muslims being painted with this picture to step up next week when these guys go after catholicism again, or the mormons, or the jews, or whomever the flavour du jour is.

Step up to the specific argument, if you find that any argument against religious policy is 'hating on religion' you'll be a pretty useless person in these debates. Because lots of religious people are against the anti-gay movement, are against women being abused, killed and subjugated by men, etc..

I guess you think the middle east is all full of flowers and happiness, freedoms are our luxury and this debate has a real consequence in not only Canadian lives but the lives of people in the world.

We have our troops defending Afghanistan, a place that holds the same policies and beliefs as Saudi Arabia, everyone's friend cause of oil. We ignore their treatment of women, their suppressive regime.

But if you think thats all about religion, thats your choice. For me its about policy, and I'll fight tooth and nail to argue against institutions, governments or yes religions that promote an ideology or belief that is wrong.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Thor

I'm not an expert, I'm certainly well versed in middle eastern politics and society, its one of my side passions as I do truly think modernizing the middle east is a major factor in securing our future security of this planet.

I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to all this stuff, from Ayaan Hirsi Ali to websites like http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ and many other human rights websites.

I take my queue not from academic debate but from the obvious, very much reported women's rights violations that are being committed in all of the muslim world, no matter the level of 'westernization.'

Well if you've read the Qu'ran, here's a few passages that might somehow demean a modern woman:

I have tons more if you need to see the typical misogyny of the Koran, much like most of the religious texts of all religions of that age.

Semantics, thats cute, in the kingdom outside of the wealth and power there is a massive amount of repressive and extreme form of Islam, it does not need to be pointed out that much of the 9/11 attackers came from this country of modernity and women's rights

I'm passionate about human rights, I'm as passionate about this as I am for gay rights, for equal rights of women in all nations of the world. The fact Islam is one of the worst perpetrators of this is undeniable.

You can be apologetic, but the rights of women cannot be ignored for Islam or any other dogmatic beliefs.

This is a massive fallacy you suggest, while in the western world Christianity might propose a 'stay at home mom' or suggest a woman should not work for the benefit of her family. She is not however subject to lashes, death, rape or any other punishment should she choose not to follow that path.

The west has religious freedom, the Islamic world outside of Turkey has theocracy's and tyrannies that enforce the very strict Islamic law. Even Egypt which used to be a pretty modern Islamic country has started to fall backwards in regards to the rights of women.

The massive problem, is again, that women are not in the poorer and more dogmatic parts of the muslim world given education. So they cannot become part of the discourse or debate to change or modernize their society. Again a lot of this is part of the poverty and desperation of the many muslim nations. There are parts of the muslim world where capitalism and some freedoms have been nothing but beneficial to the women of those societies, but its a massive struggle for equality since even in the most modern islamic societies women have a long way to go.

Like I said originally, I don't think thats a good idea, it should be something women 'choose' to do in a FREE society. Forcing an idea or belief on anyone is wrong.

Its a war of ideology, its a war of education and empowerment. I support fully all things that bring education, secular education, to the middle east. I fight vigorously against the male dominated world of Islam which seeks to shun, treat women as inferiors.

You think I'm not studied on this, thats fine, I've spent a lot of my time and energy in this debate the last 5 years.

Not sure what 'expert' means, but clearly we are arguing from a point of apologetic vs realist

As you say, all religious texts demean women in some manner, but we were talking about burqas, were we not? And burqas do not come from the Quran. So what's the point of quoting general statements from it, and then saying all religious texts do this? If you're trying to debate, stay on topic. Are we now arguing against all religions and their existence, or are we still talking about the particular issues of Islam, and, to be more exact, the burqa?

Its not semantics. It's showing you lack a basic understanding of the culture and religious practices of the various nations that call Islam their primary religion. I believe you're 'studied,' whatever that means, but I don't think you understand the people and cultures that actually practice this. And it shows clearly. Until you show that you are familiar with the actual figures in these situations, that practice this religion, wear the burqa, and read the Quran, and don't just derive your statements and arguments from internet articles, I can't take your arguments in general seriously, and definitely not one against something as specific as the burqa. It's as simple as that. It sounds like mikey_the_redneck saying that some people from a Middle-Eastern country wanted to wear swords to a sports event. One, it ain't the Middle-East, and two, he's referring to the kirpan and Sikhs. Sure, I agree with him in theory, but he still comes across sounding ignorant.

I agree with you on basic human rights, I agree with you that religion has to change (although I don't agree it needs to be somehow eliminated), and I agree with you that certain governments need to change, as well, so do not accuse me of 'ignoring' the rights of women.

Finally, quit saying you'll fight this thing tooth and nail, or else go and join the military and go to Afghanistan. Otherwise, quit with the empty rhetoric. This isn't parliament.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

As you say, all religious texts demean women in some manner, but we were talking about burqas, were we not? And burqas do not come from the Quran. So what's the point of quoting general statements from it, and then saying all religious texts do this? If you're trying to debate, stay on topic. Are we now arguing against all religions and their existence, or are we still talking about the particular issues of Islam, and, to be more exact, the burqa?

Wow, well you could re-read my post or I can clarify it for you.

Not all religious texts demean women, a lot of them do, based on the attitude of the time they were written. Treatment of women as 2nd class citizens and half human have long persisted and in many parts of this world are still the status quo. Women's suffrage is a recent thing in our history, so even though we pretend its a long ancient evil we've removed from our modern western world we still see a lot of sexism and inequality in wages for women in the west.

Its not semantics. It's showing you lack a basic understanding of the culture and religious practices of the various nations that call Islam their primary religion.

How specifically am I lacking the basic understanding of culture and religious practices of the various nations that call Islam their primary religion? You want to use a blanket statement, please be specific because yes I spend a lot of my time reading books and listening to various speakers in defense of and criticism of the middle east. Especially in the regard in how we modernize and bring theocracies and the backwards political systems that infect the Muslim world.

I believe you're 'studied,' whatever that means, but I don't think you understand the people and cultures that actually practice this. And it shows clearly.

Clearly how, please cite an example of my complete misunderstanding of the Muslim world.

Until you show that you are familiar with the actual figures in these situations, that practice this religion, wear the burqa, and read the Quran, and don't just derive your statements and arguments from internet articles, I can't take your arguments in general seriously, and definitely not one against something as specific as the burqa.

Ok, so internet articles are void according to you. Guess I'll ignore the internet. I do read about the actual situations in the Muslim world. There are modernity places like Turkey where secularism is a reason they have the EU's respect. While in Jordan, Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and even in 'more modern' places like Egypt where pressure and abuse against women who don't follow the strict sharia law or male dominated systems the treatment and rights of women are constantly in danger.

It's as simple as that. It sounds like mikey_the_redneck saying that some people from a Middle-Eastern country wanted to wear swords to a sports event. One, it ain't the Middle-East, and two, he's referring to the kirpan and Sikhs. Sure, I agree with him in theory, but he still comes across sounding ignorant.

Well call me ignorant but I make my points on issues, I'm for the rights of women, I'm for the rights of free speech, I'm against theocracies, I'm against religious nations that don't respect human rights.

I agree with you on basic human rights, I agree with you that religion has to change (although I don't agree it needs to be somehow eliminated), and I agree with you that certain governments need to change, as well, so do not accuse me of 'ignoring' the rights of women.

I don't think religion has to be eliminated, I've said before I think it needs to modernize, stop hating on gay rights, stop forcing Africa to not use birth protection and condoms, etc..

There are a great number of the 2/3rd world that are Christian, Catholic, Muslim which treat women as 2nd class citizens, the abuses and human rights violations are unacceptable. Every time I argue points on this, my points are dismissed as "oh that guy who hates religion" as opposed to people arguing against my points, which most people agree with!

Finally, quit saying you'll fight this thing tooth and nail, or else go and join the military and go to Afghanistan. Otherwise, quit with the empty rhetoric. This isn't parliament.

I'll fight this tooth and nail. The pen is mightier than the sword. I don't need to join a military to vote my disdain, or do you support the Roman way, only the military becomes citizens? Because warriors in the roman empire and the countless other warlike empires really did well in the implementation of rights, freedoms and making the world a better place.

My rhetoric isn't empty, its like anyone who on this website argues a point of view, be it about a political ideology, supporting a terrible team like the canucks, supporting an economic idea, libertarianism, cosmology, evolution, vanilla ice cream vs chocolate, etc...