Cowboys gets the boot...Again!

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Muta

So? That type of incident is few and far between. Many cities around the world have club/bar districts. Clubs in Calgary are so spaced out, it's difficult to walk from one to a handful of other clubs, which is the way it should be. You have to taxi it or drive just to get from one club to the other one alot of the time.

Inconveniencing an entire city just because of a few crime incidents is ass-backward thinking. Especially in a cold climate like Calgary's.

Every single city I've ever lived in that had a concentrated club district had major problems with violence in the are. It's not rocket science, an area in which hundreds of drunk 18-25 year olds are spilled onto the street at the same time is going to plagued with problems.

[Muta]

Meh, I don't see it like that at all. There is nothing wrong with having club/ bar districts. Proper enforcing is needed, yes, but some of you worry too much. Again hundreds of cities around the world have these districts. They aren't all littered with crime to the point that it's unbearable.. It's a pretty simple line of thinking that proximity of clubs are directly correlated to levels of crime. Crime happens all over, regardless of where these establishments are. All it takes is two people, regardless of location.

Clubs distrcits can be done right. Spacing out these places IS an inconvenience, and if we are doing it because of a chance of crime is just a further unnwcessary coddling of our society. Development is being prevented because people are scared of things that 'could' happen. Sorry, but I fine that laughable.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Muta

Meh, I don't see it like that at all. There is nothing wrong with having club/ bar districts. Proper enforcing is needed, yes, but some of you worry too much. Again hundreds of cities around the world have these districts. They aren't all littered with crime to the point that it's unbearable.. It's a pretty simple line of thinking that proximity of clubs are directly correlated to levels of crime. Crime happens all over, regardless of where these establishments are. All it takes is two people, regardless of location.

Clubs distrcits can be done right. Spacing out these places IS an inconvenience, and if we are doing it because of a chance of crime is just a further unnwcessary coddling of our society. Development is being prevented because people are scared of things that 'could' happen. Sorry, but I fine that laughable.

They can be done properly, but they require massive enforcement costs. I'm not sure where you get the idea that hundreds of cities have "club districts", it's not all that common. Your basic argument is that inconvenience outweighs almost certain issues with violence. Not exactly a strong leg to stand on there. Sure crime can happen anywhere, but it's far more likely to happen in an area filled with hundreds of drunks.

BTW, in Calgary this isn't a matter of "could happen", it's something that already has happened.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by valo403

They can be done properly, but they require massive enforcement costs. I'm not sure where you get the idea that hundreds of cities have "club districts", it's not all that common. Your basic argument is that inconvenience outweighs almost certain issues with violence. Not exactly a strong leg to stand on there. Sure crime can happen anywhere, but it's far more likely to happen in an area filled with hundreds of drunks.

BTW, in Calgary this isn't a matter of "could happen", it's something that already has happened.

Pretty much every city has club districts, it is indeed common. No idea where you get the idea that they dont(Toronto(Richmond district), Montreal(St. Laurent, St. Catherine), Hamilton(Hess Villiage), even Regina has a small one.

The only reason why those districts have survived and the ones in calgary have not is we have never had a police presence on the street. Whereas most cities with districts will normally have cruisers parked on the street, where patrons can see cops are around. In Calgary, with respect to the past districts(elec ave, 1st st), cops were never to be seen, until something happened on the streets. Other cities do things to prevent(police presence), here in Calgary they have always been reactionary, once its too late.

I have been on numerous committees deeming to improve nightlife, and actually been a lounge/club owner in various cities and Calgary council has always had a backwards mentality with respect to licensing and formulating a club type district. That is one of the major reasons why Calgary has very little to no nightlife. They have always failed to realize Calgary is a city and nightlife is essential, instead in the past have treated downtown Calgary like it was Okotoks. Smalltown mentality.

Case in point, since last year, cops will park a cruiser just on the 10th ave area(Whiskey, Tantra, Hifi) and random violence on that street has gone down. Yes, the odd event does still occur, but not at the rate it was going a couple years ago. Something as simple as a cruiser or cop standing on the street(as other cities do) does have an essence of prevention. Club districts can work, as it has been proven in other cities. Nightlife is certainly an important part of any city.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

If Calgary really gave a damn about Western culture, A Bar Named Sue would have never gone out of business.

A Bar Named Sue didn't "go out of business" ... the owner had some shady debt going on and relocated to Fernie.

Not to mention, that place double-booked bands like crazy and bands would show up with their gear and were told to go home. ###### that place.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by soulchoice

Pretty much every city has club districts, it is indeed common. No idea where you get the idea that they dont(Toronto(Richmond district), Montreal(St. Laurent, St. Catherine), Hamilton(Hess Villiage), even Regina has a small one.

The only reason why those districts have survived and the ones in calgary have not is we have never had a police presence on the street. Whereas most cities with districts will normally have cruisers parked on the street, where patrons can see cops are around. In Calgary, with respect to the past districts(elec ave, 1st st), cops were never to be seen, until something happened on the streets. Other cities do things to prevent(police presence), here in Calgary they have always been reactionary, once its too late.

I have been on numerous committees deeming to improve nightlife, and actually been a lounge/club owner in various cities and Calgary council has always had a backwards mentality with respect to licensing and formulating a club type district. That is one of the major reasons why Calgary has very little to no nightlife. They have always failed to realize Calgary is a city and nightlife is essential, instead in the past have treated downtown Calgary like it was Okotoks. Smalltown mentality.

Case in point, since last year, cops will park a cruiser just on the 10th ave area(Whiskey, Tantra, Hifi) and random violence on that street has gone down. Yes, the odd event does still occur, but not at the rate it was going a couple years ago. Something as simple as a cruiser or cop standing on the street(as other cities do) does have an essence of prevention. Club districts can work, as it has been proven in other cities. Nightlife is certainly an important part of any city.

Just to touch on this, I know there's a huge push from CPS right now to have a large amount of beat officers to start in the next few months. I wouldn't be surprised if they do the whole "bar watch" thing during the weekends.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by soulchoice

Pretty much every city has club districts, it is indeed common. No idea where you get the idea that they dont(Toronto(Richmond district), Montreal(St. Laurent, St. Catherine), Hamilton(Hess Villiage), even Regina has a small one.

The only reason why those districts have survived and the ones in calgary have not is we have never had a police presence on the street. Whereas most cities with districts will normally have cruisers parked on the street, where patrons can see cops are around. In Calgary, with respect to the past districts(elec ave, 1st st), cops were never to be seen, until something happened on the streets. Other cities do things to prevent(police presence), here in Calgary they have always been reactionary, once its too late.

I have been on numerous committees deeming to improve nightlife, and actually been a lounge/club owner in various cities and Calgary council has always had a backwards mentality with respect to licensing and formulating a club type district. That is one of the major reasons why Calgary has very little to no nightlife. They have always failed to realize Calgary is a city and nightlife is essential, instead in the past have treated downtown Calgary like it was Okotoks. Smalltown mentality.

Case in point, since last year, cops will park a cruiser just on the 10th ave area(Whiskey, Tantra, Hifi) and random violence on that street has gone down. Yes, the odd event does still occur, but not at the rate it was going a couple years ago. Something as simple as a cruiser or cop standing on the street(as other cities do) does have an essence of prevention. Club districts can work, as it has been proven in other cities. Nightlife is certainly an important part of any city.

Calgary did have Electric Avenue and 1st SW to a lesser degree as districts back in the day. 17 Avenue to a degree is a current district but it's mainly pubs and lounges. For a city of 1.0 million plus, the nightlife is definitely lacking. Old school city council and folks that bash popular clubs like Cowboys aren't helping. City council sees districts as burdens but if properly patrolled and designed they can really work. I personally am not a big fan of Cowboys but think that big clubs like these in our downtown core are crucial to our nightlife. Another thing that bugs me are folks that live near Eau Claire that don't want pubs and clubs near their residences. If you want and choose the live downtown, expect a nightlife. If not, move to the suburbs.

I agree that club districts can work if properly planned and nightlife is vital part of being a major city. Major cities like Montreal promote their nightlife in tourism advertising and it works wonders. Any buddy I know planning a stag out of town comes up with Montreal or Las Vegas as options. Other cities aren't even mentioned.

If I was on your committee, I'd push for more Western style clubs in the downtown to go with our Stampede city theme. Why not have a mix of clubs like Cowboys (large club with young crowd), Ranchmans (large club with older crowd) and Bar named Sue (intimate place with live music) all in the core? I heard that Nashville which is a city of our size has a similar setup in their core. You can still have other clubs like top 40, Irish pubs, alternative etc. in the mix.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by valo403

They can be done properly, but they require massive enforcement costs. I'm not sure where you get the idea that hundreds of cities have "club districts", it's not all that common. Your basic argument is that inconvenience outweighs almost certain issues with violence. Not exactly a strong leg to stand on there. Sure crime can happen anywhere, but it's far more likely to happen in an area filled with hundreds of drunks.

Actually, your argument isn't exactly a stong leg to stand on.

These districts don't require 'massive enforcement costs'. If anything, it requires fewer enforcement costs because more police resources have a smaller proximity to cover. Spacing out your clubs disperses resources to further places.

Inconvenience is one but many factors that not having one of these districts does. Violence can happen anywhere; regardless of where the club is. In fact, if enough resources and proper planning are used to create and control these districts, by that logic, why not create a district that police can more effectively cover, and have an area that people can come to socialize? If you want a great example, look no further than the Gaslamp district in San Diego. Restaurants, bars, pubs, and a police presence. It's the place to go, its mostly safe, and its a very lively part of the city bringings the citizens and tourists together. It's a fantastic urban planning scheme.

I don't buy your 'drunk' argument either. That's going to happen at any bar, regardless of location... and you're also assuming that drunks are violent people and will contribute to crime. I assume you haven't been to many big bar districts before; while there are drunks, with the proper amount of pedestrians / civilians walking around and police presence it's nowhere near as bad as you're making it out to be.

If what's preventing a city from developing a bar district is crime that 'could' happen, that's a very backwards way to think. If that's the case, maybe we shouldn't have National Parks either because bears live in them and they could kill (exterminate) you.

Originally Posted by valo403

BTW, in Calgary this isn't a matter of "could happen", it's something that already has happened.

I think you missed the point of what I was getting at.