British Columbia adopts ambitious Carbon Tax

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

I know it's a futile effort, but as long as governments keep trying to tax us into submission, I'll do my best to burn my campfires as HOT and SMOKY as possible. How much CO2 is released by burning 150 pounds of birch??

oh man, you sure showed us. aren't you a rebel.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Table 5

oh man, you sure showed us. aren't you a rebel.

I'm always sort of frightened and amazed by the disregard that some show for our natural environment. I just can't get around the fact that some people don't realize that when we lose it, it'll be gone forever.

I'd recommend every skeptic read Biophilia and The Creation: An Appeal to Save Life on Earth by my favourite biologist/artist, E.O. Wilson.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by fotze

The last two points are the most important, as long as the government doesn't touch a penny of it, is a big step in the right direction. i.e. spending it 100% on actual reduction problems.

Agreed - I would like to see what this goes toward.

Hopefully something like tax breaks for carbon friendly upgrades etc.

Who knows why unsteady Eddie couldnt have done this.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Who knows why unsteady Eddie couldnt have done this.

Judging by the response on this board he'd be crucified by Alberta voters if he did. The political will to do something like this is probably a lot higher in BC than Alberta.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Judging by the response on this board he'd be crucified by Alberta voters if he did. The political will to do something like this is probably a lot higher in BC than Alberta.

Where would PO'd PC voters go if Stelmach pulled something like this? Seriously, he has nothing to lose.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by peter12

Where would PO'd PC voters go if Stelmach pulled something like this? Seriously, he has nothing to lose.

Do you honestly think the Conservative Party in Alberta thinks that way though? They can do anything they want because there are no political alternatives? I doubt it... I think Stelmach is being pretty careful right now, PC dominance in Alberta isn't a sure thing like it used to be. That's why you're seeing all this political activity on the right and left of the Cons... people smell blood.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by peter12

Where would PO'd PC voters go if Stelmach pulled something like this? Seriously, he has nothing to lose.

Exactly.

All he needs to do is provide some tax refund for farmers and he wont lose, it might be closer than say 60 - 10 but all he would need to do is put it in to a Heritage 'esqe' type enviro fund that put that toward home/biz upgrades for energy efficiency as well as a definitive plan on whether or not to move forward with a train link. The "magical train link" alone would likely gain him as many voters as increaseing gas prices by a few cents.

It also shuts the Libs and NDP up about Alberta having "no plannnnn....." to fight carbon emissions. Sure you lose some soft C support in Calgary and Edmonton but the PC power base isnt in Calgary/Edmonton. Its in the counties that have a dispraportional number of seats per person.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Do you honestly think the Conservative Party in Alberta thinks that way though? They can do anything they want because there are no political alternatives? I doubt it... I think Stelmach is being pretty careful right now, PC dominance in Alberta isn't a sure thing like it used to be. That's why you're seeing all this political activity on the right and left of the Cons... people smell blood.

No, I totally agree with you. The PCs are a bunch of gutless pukes, currently. New party is coming.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Do you honestly think the Conservative Party in Alberta thinks that way though? They can do anything they want because there are no political alternatives? I doubt it... I think Stelmach is being pretty careful right now, PC dominance in Alberta isn't a sure thing like it used to be. That's why you're seeing all this political activity on the right and left of the Cons... people smell blood.

So you honestly think a Kevin Daft lead Liberal party can win in Alberta? The closest they would come to power is as a part of a coalition government.

The only hope of unseeding the PC in this province is if the Libs ceased to exist and a new party came to the front to challenge the PC (similar to what happened in Sask). The Libs in this province have to live with the Trudeau/Cretien (sp?) legacy which likely will never leave them. People in Alberta are looking for a change in goverment but at the moment they have a vacuum of choices.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

So you honestly think a Kevin Daft lead Liberal party can win in Alberta? The closest they would come to power is as a part of a coalition government.

I'm certainly not saying any other parties do or don't have a chance to win, I'm just saying the Conservative Party isn't just doing whatever they want regardless to voter's feelings. They can't impose any legislation/policies they want without expecting consequences. Personally I think adopting more 'green' policies is one of the only ways the Con's can keep power, by marginlizing the Greens/NDP/Liberals by taking some of their best ideas and adopting them.

The only hope of unseeding the PC in this province is if the Libs ceased to exist and a new party came to the front to challenge the PC (similar to what happened in Sask). The Libs in this province have to live with the Trudeau/Cretien (sp?) legacy which likely will never leave them. People in Alberta are looking for a change in goverment but at the moment they have a vacuum of choices.

This might all be true... but it still doesn't mean the Cons can do whatever they want regardless of voter's opinions/feelings on the issues. They may have more leeway than other provincial governments, but if Stelmach introduced a carbon tax tomorrow you'd hear bloody murder across the province.

Also, while people may associate the Alberta Liberals with the Federal Liberals, that's got to be mostly due to ignorance... the Alberta Liberal Party didn't have anything to do with Federal Liberal corruption (of course, some people think if you join any party with the word 'Liberal' in it you're a crook).

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Also, while people may associate the Alberta Liberals with the Federal Liberals, that's got to be mostly due to ignorance... the Alberta Liberal Party didn't have anything to do with Federal Liberal corruption (of course, some people think if you join any party with the word 'Liberal' in it you're a crook).

Well, ignorance, and the incompetence of the provincial Liberals in that they keep electing boneheads to lead them who simply don't inspire anyone, or serve to change opinion.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, ignorance, and the incompetence of the provincial Liberals in that they keep electing boneheads to lead them who simply don't inspire anyone, or serve to change opinion.

Yep... I'm a disenchanted urban conservative... their whole campaign should be geared to inspiring me to vote Liberal... not haphazardly going after Stalemach with kidgloves.

As well, it doesn't help perception when many provincial liberal candidates are also federal liberal candidates (like Dr. Avalon Roberts for one).

[evman150]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

This is a tax grab plain and simple. The tree hugging commies in BC will applaud it as their government is a world leader in reducing emissions and thus the leaders in saving the world from global warming. The provincial government is just using a popular trendy theme as an excuse to steal more money from its citizens.

This tree hugging commie applauds the government of the province of British Columbia for being the world leader in the conservation of our planet.

Seriously, today I'm just that much prouder to be a British Columbian.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Table 5

We have to work to make transportation more efficient and encourage other forms of transportation for people (ie, make public transportation dirt cheap etc)

Dirt cheap isn't going to work. Reliability and convenience is what I'd like. I took the bus for 4 months before I worked from home. It was dirt cheap, but it was innefficient and had sketchy reliability. Seriously I had to get on the bus at 6:30 AM to be at work for 8:00 start time. Than coming home I stopped work at 5:00 and usually wasn't home until 6:30. So somehow I was getting in an 8 hour work day and away from home for 12 hours with a one hour lunch break. Conversely if I drove my car and left home at that time in the morning I was at work before 7:00 and if I left work at 6:00 at night I was home at 6:20. So I could squeeze in two extra hours of work at OT wages and we were busy enough that I got paid for it. Well for an extra $90 a day in gross pay, fart yeah I'll drive a car for the convenience.

In Canada public transit is generally bad and they're taking the attitude of trying to force everyone to take it as opposed to making it an option that people want to take. They think by over taxing fuel and doing god who know's what with the money, they'll anger everyone enough to move closer to work or take public transit. I'd rather they made a transit system that was something I wanted to take over driving because it's more efficient and convenient. I'll pay a premium to have a system like that because I can't buy time and given the choice I'd rather not drive. The current public transit system costs me 2 hours of time a day. In a typical month....I waste two days because of how badly inefficient it currently is.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Yep... I'm a disenchanted urban conservative... their whole campaign should be geared to inspiring me to vote Liberal... not haphazardly going after Stalemach with kidgloves.

More often than not, it seems the Liberals platform is "vote for us because the Conservatives are bad". Don't tell me why I shouldn't vote for Stelmach. Tell me why I should vote for you. If Taft has any great ideas or inspiration for running this province, he hasn't really gotten that message out.

As well, it doesn't help perception when many provincial liberal candidates are also federal liberal candidates (like Dr. Avalon Roberts for one).

Indeed, or when the provincial Liberals run to the Federal Liberals to help fight their battles, ala Bill 11 back in the day.

I agree with a poster above. Thanks to Trudeau and Chretien, the word "liberal" is stained in this province. Even with competent leadership, the party would struggle to fight that. The NDP is way too far outside the realm of what this province wants, so there really is no centre-left alternative right now.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

More often than not, it seems the Liberals platform is "vote for us because the Conservatives are bad". Don't tell me why I shouldn't vote for Stelmach. Tell me why I should vote for you. If Taft has any great ideas or inspiration for running this province, he hasn't really gotten that message out.



Indeed, or when the provincial Liberals run to the Federal Liberals to help fight their battles, ala Bill 11 back in the day.

I agree with a poster above. Thanks to Trudeau and Chretien, the word "liberal" is stained in this province. Even with competent leadership, the party would struggle to fight that. The NDP is way too far outside the realm of what this province wants, so there really is no centre-left alternative right now.

Well, Taft does have a few good ideas that I do like, namely, the City Charters, reducing royalties on natural gas, 10% limit on rent increases (though I would make it inflation max, unless an inspection/appraisal at the landlord's expense is undertaken), and the healthcare specific high schools. However, he carries the stigma, he's not inspiring, and his campaign has not been very good. Still, its between him and the Alliance... the debate will decide it for me.

I still maintain the hypothetical amalgamation of the Liberals and Alliance would be the ideal party for Alberta. Pragmatic fiscal conservatism, with a moderate, urbancentric lean. Of course, the words Alliance and Liberal would have to go... both have a negative connotation. When people hear "Alliance" they think church (or maybe Star Wars), and that's not what plays here. Liberal connotation is obvious.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by Table 5

oh man, you sure showed us. aren't you a rebel.

I'm not attempting to show anybody anything except a figurative middle finger. Whether or not our CO2 emissions are causing warming, the approaches being taken to limit those emissions are seriously flawed. The powers that be are using FEAR to advance a simplistic agenda, and those who do something (whether useful or not) in support of that agenda instantly take on a holier-than-thou attitude. Anybody with an alternative viewpoint is vilified. That's no way to approach a problem.

Rather than get in line with the sheeple who absolutely love this kind of "positive action," I'd prefer to ensure that discussion on this topic remains alive. While I won't literally burn all the firewood I can, the concept of such protests against flawed policy are important.

[Thunderball]

On topic... I'm curious to see how this plays out.

Personally, I don't like when Governments use a blunt instrument like taxes to achieve their goals. More often than not, the desired outcome does not happen, and the result is increased inflation, less competitive edge and lower disposable income to reinvest in the economy. I will also be surprised if the government doesn't find a way to squirrel some of this into general revenue (especially with the olympics coming).

I've always been in favor of the carrot over the stick. Don't force people into doing something... make them want to do something... especially since the science is dubious (specifically, what human emissions are as a percentage of total and how much would actually have to go to make a real difference) and the end result being potentially useless.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Dirt cheap isn't going to work. Reliability and convenience is what I'd like. I took the bus for 4 months before I worked from home. It was dirt cheap, but it was innefficient and had sketchy reliability. Seriously I had to get on the bus at 6:30 AM to be at work for 8:00 start time. Than coming home I stopped work at 5:00 and usually wasn't home until 6:30. So somehow I was getting in an 8 hour work day and away from home for 12 hours with a one hour lunch break. Conversely if I drove my car and left home at that time in the morning I was at work before 7:00 and if I left work at 6:00 at night I was home at 6:20. So I could squeeze in two extra hours of work at OT wages and we were busy enough that I got paid for it. Well for an extra $90 a day in gross pay, fart yeah I'll drive a car for the convenience.

In Canada public transit is generally bad and they're taking the attitude of trying to force everyone to take it as opposed to making it an option that people want to take. They think by over taxing fuel and doing god who know's what with the money, they'll anger everyone enough to move closer to work or take public transit. I'd rather they made a transit system that was something I wanted to take over driving because it's more efficient and convenient. I'll pay a premium to have a system like that because I can't buy time and given the choice I'd rather not drive. The current public transit system costs me 2 hours of time a day. In a typical month....I waste two days because of how badly inefficient it currently is.

My thoughts exactly - but I'd add the issue is compunded by thinking it should be free or cheap and public only.

If people actually had to pay the $5 each bus ride costs them, they might demand better service. And some might be willing to pay $10 or $20 for really good service.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by evman150

This tree hugging commie applauds the government of the province of British Columbia for being the world leader in the conservation of our planet.

Seriously, today I'm just that much prouder to be a British Columbian.

You really think this will do anything for the planet?