It's time to retire #14

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Also, why are we taking away Fleury's Stanley Cup from his accomplishments because it was a "stacked team"? How many stacked teams have won the cup? The awnser is, lots. Every other player in the league gets credit when the win a cup, so Fluery does, too.

Ask Iggy about stacked teams that didn't win the cup

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by krynski

If he is to be of good character, in some ways, yes, he should not use that as an excuse to be a bitter person. I have met many wonderful people who have encountered very challenging situations, perhaps even more challenging then the ones he faced. It's simply not an excuse. I have met people who have encountered very similar situations as well, very successful people.

I bet you he has gone through MUCH worse than anyone of those people. Were they raped mutiple times, two days a week for years with the risk of losing their entire future career if they spoke out?

He's had an extremely large amount of success in his life. Does behavior dictate success?

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Theo is still responsible for his actions. Yeah he had a ####ed up life that no one should have to be put through, but you can't use that as an excuse to be an #######. People are still responsible for their actions.

Yes you can. It's called having issues and those issues weren't caused by Theo so I have no problem with the path Theo has taken in his life. He's done more good for society than you can ever imagine doing.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Yes you can. It's called having issues and those issues weren't caused by Theo so I have no problem with the path Theo has taken in his life. He's done more good for society than you can ever imagine doing.

No matter how bad your life is unless there is a gun to your head you should be accountable for the choices you make.

In no way would I ever justify what James did to Theo, but absolving Theo of choices he made after is ridiculous and IMO is wrong. Accountability is a very important thing in our society and without it anyone with a bad childhood is given a free pass to reek havoc on our society.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by doctajones428

I bet you he has gone through MUCH worse than anyone of those people. Were they raped mutiple times, two days a week for years with the risk of losing their entire future career if they spoke out?

He's had an extremely large amount of success in his life. Does behavior dictate success?

Two of my best friends went through what Theo did, 1 struggles more than the other with it, but neither uses it as an excuse to be a jerk. And when either makes a poor choice no one gives them a free pass because of it.

Let's be honest here your average member of society does not get a free pass for their actions irregardless of their past. Theo gets a pass because of what he did on the ice, his past is just a convenient excuse.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Fire

I'm pretty sure the introduction of "Forever a Flame" has eliminated any future traditional jersey retirements, but I could be wrong. If that was not the case than MacInnis was rob.

Unless, as has been speculated, MacInnis didn't want to have his number retired and the only thing he'd agree to was the "Forever a Flame" thing. Also, they can call it whatever they want, but until someone else steps on the ice wearing #2, it's retired.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by getbak

Unless, as has been speculated, MacInnis didn't want to have his number retired and the only thing he'd agree to was the "Forever a Flame" thing. Also, they can call it whatever they want, but until someone else steps on the ice wearing #2, it's retired.

6 players (according to hockey reference) have worn #2 since MacInnis was traded, although no one has worn it since he retired. I know the policy was they would not retire the number of a former Flame if they were employed by another organization, I am not sure of MacInnis wstill works for the Blues or not now, but if he does it will remain unofficially retired.

At least we know that Nieuwendyk and Gilmour are not candidates to have their number retired as 25 has been used regularly and 39 is now in use once again.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by mikeecho

Ask Iggy about stacked teams that didn't win the cup

Okay, what does that prove? My point was that stacked teams have won many cups throughout history, not that every stacked team has a won a cup.

[Resolute 14]

MacInnis remains an employee of the Blues. He appears to be serving in the same capacity that Conroy does here.

As far as the "Forever a Flame" thing goes, it is a goofy name, but it is the process going forward. It doesn't matter what you call the ceremony itself, Theo and Iggy's numbers are already retired. Nobody will wear them again. The rest is just details.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Let's be honest here your average member of society does not get a free pass for their actions irregardless of their past. Theo gets a pass because of what he did on the ice, his past is just a convenient excuse.

A convenient excuse? Okay now we're just entering full ###### territory. I'm honestly going to talk to him today and see if he wants to join in on this discussion. What a bunch of ignorance in this thread. You guys seriously have no idea, no god dam idea what you're talking about.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

No matter how bad your life is unless there is a gun to your head you should be accountable for the choices you make.

In no way would I ever justify what James did to Theo, but absolving Theo of choices he made after is ridiculous and IMO is wrong. Accountability is a very important thing in our society and without it anyone with a bad childhood is given a free pass to reek havoc on our society.

The choices he made ended his NHL career and cost him a slam dunk induction into the Hall of Fame. They resulted in significant criticism when his drug problems started to become public. They cost him relationships and a pile of money bigger than any of us will ever see.

The choices he made have also sent a pedophile predator back to jail and have helped raise awareness and support for sexual assault victims, especially male victims.

The guy was one of the better players of his generation, won a Stanley Cup, won Olympic gold, is easily top three all time in Flames history.

For all your talk about "absolving" him being wrong, I think this is more a matter of you desiring to punish him for some reason. It smacks me as being something along the lines of the Moore/Bertuzzi thing where people just wanted to see a guy beat down over and over and over again until they were personally satisfied.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Was Theo ever wrong in his comments about the organization?

Honest question.

I came to say this. I can pick out at least 10 posters in this thread who have ''crapped all over the organization'' worse then Theo ever did. And their comments are stuck on the internet forever. That doesn't make them any less of a fan. And just because Theo had some negative things to say (in which no one has directly quoted btw) doesn't make him any less of a player.

At the end of the day, sure he might have been an ass during parts of his tenure here. But the entire city wasn't pleased with the team during that time. He just happened to be the guy with a microphone stuck to his face because the media was well aware of how many quotes they could get from him.

Retire his #. 20 years from now when I go to the 'dome with my kids and we look up to see Fleury at the rafters, I can share stories with them of the many times I got to watch him play and just how exciting he was. No one is going to care 20 years from now how his legacy was tarnished because of what he said about the organization. He has more then made up for it. The Flames are a classy organization. I have faith they will do the right thing.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

No matter how bad your life is unless there is a gun to your head you should be accountable for the choices you make.

In no way would I ever justify what James did to Theo, but absolving Theo of choices he made after is ridiculous and IMO is wrong. Accountability is a very important thing in our society and without it anyone with a bad childhood is given a free pass to reek havoc on our society.

"reek havoc on our society"? Did Fleury go out and rape other kids or rob people at gun point that i don't know about?

Fleury went out and did a lot of drinking and drugs. From what i have read he did not make the players on his team join him. He did it alone at strip clubs and dingy dives when the casinos and strip clubs closed.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

No matter how bad your life is unless there is a gun to your head you should be accountable for the choices you make.

In no way would I ever justify what James did to Theo, but absolving Theo of choices he made after is ridiculous and IMO is wrong. Accountability is a very important thing in our society and without it anyone with a bad childhood is given a free pass to reek havoc on our society.

You make it seem like the choices Fleury made effected a whole bunch of people when in reality they effected him only. He wasn't out there causing harm to anyone but himself.

He was accountable for the choices he made which is why he paid for it by having his career ended shorty and he's now sober.

He's also helped countless sexual assault victims feel like they're not alone and took some stigma away from coming forward. It's not easy to come out as a heterosexual male and say you've been raped by another male.

Fleury is and should be a role model.

[Red Menace]

For me this is a pretty easy decision, he was the face of the franchise in the 90's, lead the team in scoring 6-7 times, scored 100 pts 2x, 50G 2x, Stanley Cup, Gold Medal, 6 All Star games as a Flame, 2nd all time in Goal and Points.
While I would agree that a HHOF or Retired Number nomination should also consider character and off ice activity, I don't think Theo's crossed the line enough to disqualify him. The large majority of his behaviour was self destructive.
I also believe Nieuwendyk should be honoured, and I think one can make a very good case for the likes of Jim Peplinski and Joel Otto, who were with the team for 700 games and were key contributors during their era, and both have been exemplary alumni members.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The choices he made ended his NHL career and cost him a slam dunk induction into the Hall of Fame. They resulted in significant criticism when his drug problems started to become public. They cost him relationships and a pile of money bigger than any of us will ever see.

The choices he made have also sent a pedophile predator back to jail and have helped raise awareness and support for sexual assault victims, especially male victims.

The guy was one of the better players of his generation, won a Stanley Cup, won Olympic gold, is easily top three all time in Flames history.

For all your talk about "absolving" him being wrong, I think this is more a matter of you desiring to punish him for some reason. It smacks me as being something along the lines of the Moore/Bertuzzi thing where people just wanted to see a guy beat down over and over and over again until they were personally satisfied.

I don't dislike Theo at all, I just don't think he should have his number retired because things he said after he left about the Flames organization, he is responsible for the #### that comes out of his mouth not anyone else.

Originally Posted by flameswin

A convenient excuse? Okay now we're just entering full ###### territory. I'm honestly going to talk to him today and see if he wants to join in on this discussion. What a bunch of ignorance in this thread. You guys seriously have no idea, no god dam idea what you're talking about.

I have no idea what I am talking about? Thanks for informing me of that.

But guess what? I know exactly what I am talking about!

No one deserves a free pass for acting like a jerk. Not Theo, not you, not me, no one. It was his choice to act like an ass and if that keeps his number out of the rafters so be it.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I don't dislike Theo at all, I just don't think he should have his number retired because things he said after he left about the Flames organization, he is responsible for the #### that comes out of his mouth not anyone else.

I have no idea what I am talking about? Thanks for informing me of that.

But guess what? I know exactly what I am talking about!

No one deserves a free pass for acting like a jerk. Not Theo, not you, not me, no one. It was his choice to act like an ass and if that keeps his number out of the rafters so be it.

I agree with you on a lot of things here. Yeah, I don't hate Fleury. I certainly admire his skill, and valued him in Flames threads. I just don't like how he phrased things on more than several occasions. To me, he was great on the ice, he was just publicly negative towards the organization and to its members. In that manner, it showed that his character lacked respect and common courtesy. Unfortunately, this was self destructive (among all the other self-destructive activities he took part in).

These character flaws destroyed his relationship with members of the organization, and some members of the fan base. This is what holds him back (or the grounds that I would hold him back from joining others in the rafters). I believe that one day, the Flames organization will retire his jersey- despite it all.

For all of you looking for a quote from him:

"At one hundred and eighty pounds, I finished 11th out of 56 guys at camp in the fitness test and scored a historic shootout goal in an exhibition game after being out of hockey for six years," Fleury reportedly wrote. "What does that say about the talent level in the NHL? 4 points and a plus 4 rating in four exhibition games and I get cut. What a joke! Craig Conroy goes the first 37 games of the season with zero goals. I wonder how many I would have had?"

"Even with all the stupid people that run the game of hockey, it's still a great game. Go figure,"

"Do I feel the same way today? Maybe not. Thing is, why should I get heat? I have nothing to do with hockey anymore,"

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=305248

[Jason14h]

"At one hundred and eighty pounds, I finished 11th out of 56 guys at camp in the fitness test and scored a historic shootout goal in an exhibition game after being out of hockey for six years," Fleury reportedly wrote. "What does that say about the talent level in the NHL? 4 points and a plus 4 rating in four exhibition games and I get cut. What a joke! Craig Conroy goes the first 37 games of the season with zero goals. I wonder how many I would have had?"

"Even with all the stupid people that run the game of hockey, it's still a great game. Go figure,"

"Do I feel the same way today? Maybe not. Thing is, why should I get heat? I have nothing to do with hockey anymore,"

AND "The report also says that Fleury predicts that the Flames will lose in the first round of the playoffs for the second year in a row. Fleury also reportedly wrote that Calgary should "trade Robyn Regehr and finally get someone for Iggy to play with.""

Soooooo what did he say that was incorrect in all this? Maybe if more people talked to the Flames like this we would have more then 1 year with a playoff series win in the past 20 years.

You're acting like he is dissing a successful NHL organization

[JohnnyB]

Fleury has certainly done much more good through the writing of his book and public activities to promote awareness of those issues than any harm done by his other off ice behavior. That should be undeniable. That transcends the game. How many teams have players in their history that have made similar contributions to raising awareness of such a serious and sensitive issue?
That's bigger than any unappealing hockey comments. Much bigger.

[Mango]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

You're acting like he is dissing a successful NHL organization

I like Theo and genuinely wish him well. I hope the organization does honor him somehow in the near future because he's a big part of their history.

However, this was a case of don't bite the hand that feeds you, or in his case, fed you. The Flames were the only team in the NHL that gave him a chance to leave the game on a fairly positive note. None of the other organizations he was a part of would even talk to him or even let him in their arenas.

Sutter could've said no to even giving him a training camp spot, but he didn't. Sutter wanted #14's career to come full circle.

Yeah, maybe he could've had more points than Conroy. I guess we'll never know, but don't crap on the club that helped you out.