PGT: President-Elect Donald J Trump

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by polak

Don't let facts get in your way:

Unemployment:



GDP Growth:



Access to healthcare:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/ea...ease201605.pdf


The fact that Trump was able to paint some bleak picture of the American economy and actually get away with it was a massive failure on behalf of the American media. Now the unskilled workforce thinks that some how Trump is going to get them a job tightening screws on an assembly line for $20 an hour like it's 1955.

This is what people just aren't able to see. When you walk into a department store, the kid folding shirts is making NA money, the cashier is, the manager is, the HR person, the accountant is, and so fourth, yet somehow that shirt is priced at $15 on the bargain rack. So how can a product priced below many wages be sustainable if that product didn't come from Bangladesh at only a few cents?

Do people think they're just going to take jobs from China and India? Not unless they're willing to make a few cents a day, have no safe working conditions and no labour laws, no pensions, and no benefits. That, or people are going to have to live without their smart phone, without their cars, without their 10 sets of shoes and all the other benefits of first world living.

Knowing these people, I doubt they're smart enough to give anything up, so they'll just have to accept the jobs aren't coming back

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What are you even talking about?

what are you talking about?

I'm trying to make race not matter. Say America was a bit pie, no races.
Now take Trumps policies.

We need our jobs back
We need to secure the borders
We need better trade deals
We don't want a corrupt leader

how does it play out?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

what are you talking about?

I'm trying to make race not matter. Say America was a bit pie, no races.
Now take Trumps policies.

We need our jobs back
We need to secure the borders
We need better trade deals
We don't want a corrupt leader

how does it play out?

Probably the same ratio as unicorns to leprechauns.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

This is what people just aren't able to see. When you walk into a department store, the kid folding shirts is making NA money, the cashier is, the manager is, the HR person, the accountant is, and so fourth, yet somehow that shirt is priced at $15 on the bargain rack. So how can a product priced below many wages be sustainable if that product didn't come from Bangladesh at only a few cents?

Do people think they're just going to take jobs from China and India? Not unless they're willing to make a few cents a day, have no safe working conditions and no labour laws, no pensions, and no benefits. That, or people are going to have to live without their smart phone, without their cars, without their 10 sets of shoes and all the other benefits of first world living.

Knowing these people, I doubt they're smart enough to give anything up, so they'll just have to accept the jobs aren't coming back

you'd have to penalize the company. We will tax you XXX% if you try to bring goods from outside the US back in. Then it may offset the discrepancy. Yes goods will be more expensive. That shirt is now $30.

[KamFongAsChinHo]

A good friend of mine - livelong Democrat until this year - changed his allegiance to Republican. His rationale? "I know what I'm getting with Hillary, but not with Trump". In other words, we need a change and how much worse can it get?

I'm beginning to suspect that his mindset may be representative of a lot of others.

Just my two cents.

[SuperMatt18]

I do kind of feel like a lot of this is party politics and maybe has less to do with the overall message of the candidates.

We like to think the candidates make a difference but in the end democrats and republicans will vote for their party irregardless of who is running for them.

The difference in the election tends to be getting your share of the vote to actually turn up and vote.

Democrats stayed home more in 2016 than they did in 2008 & 2012 and Trump did a good job of getting his supporters out to vote (media claiming a landslide for Hilary probably didn't help on this point).

In the end I have a feeling there are probably alot of people in some key areas (Michigan for example) who didn't get out and vote this time around that may regret it today.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by polak

Don't let facts get in your way:

Unemployment:



GDP Growth:



Access to healthcare:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/ea...ease201605.pdf


The fact that Trump was able to paint some bleak picture of the American economy and actually get away with it was a massive failure on behalf of the American media. Now the unskilled workforce thinks that some how Trump is going to get them a job tightening screws on an assembly line for $20 an hour like it's 1955.

Again, do economic facts matter when they don't impact your life in a positive way at all?

Or does hearing how great everyone is doing, and the country as a whole, while you slip further into the cracks actually make your resentment worse?

I vote the latter.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by kevman

See, that's the problem.

"We, the elites, lost because there are too many dumb people."

If you want to dismiss half of the voting population like that go ahead - it's that dismissal that just led to Trumps victory.

Sadly it's the truth. All 250 million Americans follow a bell curve of intelligence. Did you honestly believe we were all Stephen Hawking? Now considering only a select few of those intelligent people are college educated due to the economic situation with the education system, while only 1/5 of Americans are not even high school graduates, where does that leave us? With a bunch of Stephen Hawkings?

[Flash Walken]

Solid, well paying union jobs in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin are gone and have not been adequately replaced.

Trump promised to bring manufacturing back from Mexico.

Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin voted trump.

[pylon]

This whole thing sucks huge. But there's nobody to blame but Clinton's supporters. They should have come out in absolute droves. They didn't, and here we are. President Rapey McPussgrabber. I would like to know how many people sitting in her little after party, gaping in horror at what was going on, actually took the time to cast a vote. Nobody took Trump seriously, and thought this was a lock. I would absolutely love to see, how many registered DEM voters vs. REP voters didn't cast a vote. I have a feeling it would be very telling.

It's election day. You drop everything and vote.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

You also said a bunch of other stuff after that. I was just pointing out there are other plausible story lines and no one really knows how things happened.

Yes FlamesAddiction.

At best he had multiple affairs, lied about it under oath. This is not up for debate. That's best case scenario for the Clintons and their 'family values.'

However, if you had followed Bill Clinton's alleged indiscretions, he (like Trump) has been accused of rape and one of his accusers has stated that Hilary Clinton had tried to silence her. Her name is Juanita Broaddrick and she isn't your 'typical accuser'. It's almost sad that she's been dismissed so much that apparently people don't know her story. The alleged incident happened 40 years ago, she only told 5 of her most intimate people at the time, one of which was her husband. When it was leaked by one of her friends she said it never occurred at the time because she wanted a private life and didn't want to go against Bill and Hilary Clinton. She never cashed in on books, she never tried to sell her story, she kept relatively quiet, she wasn't looking for fame or to try and ruin Bill's life. She only brought it back up when Hilary made a tweet that all alleged victims of sexual assault should be believed...which I think you can understand why it would set her off if she actually was raped by Bill Clinton and was threatened by Hilary.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by KamFongAsChinHo

A good friend of mine - livelong Democrat until this year - changed his allegiance to Republican. His rationale? "I know what I'm getting with Hillary, but not with Trump". In other words, we need a change and how much worse can it get?

I'm beginning to suspect that his mindset may be representative of a lot of others.

Just my two cents.

Definitely. We voted in the NDP, which is the equivalent of Texas voting in the Green Party. Does it make sense? Nope. But when people want change, they won't think rationally of the consequences, they'll simply believe "it can't get worse". And then of course it does, and then people should have nothing to complain about, but that'll never happen.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Also need to look at participation rates and types of jobs that are being produced and where they're located.

Participation rates are only really going down because they have an aging population who are more likely to be retired than before. For 25-65 year olds the rate has remained steady for the last 20 years.

As for the types of jobs, they've definitely lost some middle class jobs in manufacturing and whatnot, but they've also gained a ton in technical and health fields and the median wage has gone up quite a big in recent years so the average person is better off. There are also fewer part time and minimum wage workers than there were 6-7 years ago.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Sadly it's the truth. All 250 million Americans follow a bell curve of intelligence. Did you honestly believe we were all Stephen Hawking? Now considering only a select few of those intelligent people are college educated due to the economic situation with the education system, while only 1/5 of Americans are not even high school graduates, where does that leave us? With a bunch of Stephen Hawkings?

This is the fault of the left in this campaign. Why is a college education a measure of intelligence. White-collar is not better than blue-collar. Both are equally smart.

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by nik-

Again, do economic facts matter when they don't impact your life in a positive way at all?

Or does hearing how great everyone is doing, and the country as a whole, while you slip further into the cracks actually make your resentment worse?

I vote the latter.

That's the thing. The US may be under 5%, but it's a balance between places like Silicon Valley, Denver, Austin, etc. where there are tons of great tech job openings and no one to fill them, and places like Eastern Ohio where no one can get a job period.

In a way, Moore's law has left a large segment of the country (and the world) behind. I don't think Car manufacturers are bringing back production from Mexico, or that Apple will make earbuds in the USA - at least not the $30 ones...

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Participation rates are only really going down because they have an aging population who are more likely to be retired than before. For 25-65 year olds the rate has remained steady for the last 20 years.

As for the types of jobs, they've definitely lost some middle class jobs in manufacturing and whatnot, but they've also gained a ton in technical and health fields and the median wage has gone up quite a big in recent years so the average person is better off. There are also fewer part time and minimum wage workers than there were 6-7 years ago.

The US working age population is still growing.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFWA64TTUSM647S

Clearly the new jobs haven't been able to replace the previous manufacturing jobs. In many areas, the average person hasn't become better off. That's why you see the shocking flip of normally secure Democratic states.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

like what? Rich white people are on the left, poor white people are on the left.

I don't think it's different for immigrants. Rich ones on the right, poor ones on the left. Why is there a distinction. Why is there a "Latino Vote?"

Historically, immigrants (especially poor ones) required some some social assistance and tended to work in lower skilled union jobs. As such, most gravitated to the left.

Catholics (so most Latinos and Irish before them) historically used to vote on the left, although it is less of a factor now. Even though they were socially conservative in someways, they also believe in things like "stewardship of the environment", helping the poor, family growth, servitude and good works, etc.... Things that people on the left tried to focus on (historically and generally).

Protestants historically put virtue more on modesty/frugality, economic growth, independence and social discipline; or things closely associated with the right.

The "protestant" vs. "catholic" rivalry has as much to do with politics as religion and today even though religion has been diminished, is still the root of much of the left and right political spectrum in Europe and North America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Drak

Aside from the conspiracy part of your post, is reading comprehension an issue with some posters?

Conspiarcy post? Because I didn't dismiss the credence of a possible rape victim. I'm truly ashamed we live in a world where we are so quick to blame potential rape-victims. Read up on Juanita Broaddrick.

Originally Posted by Drak

Was Bill Clinton running for President? Was Hillary Clinton billing herself as a non-career politician?

No, Bill Clinton was not running for President. Although, many people don't know this, but he is married to Hilary. So that's kinda the point when you bring up marriage.

Originally Posted by Drak

The party of family values is pretty hypocritical here when they complain about career politicians and family values but then run a candidate that forms a cabinet full of career politicians that have had multiple marriages and cheated on their wives.

There's a lot of hypocrites. A LOT. I'm certainly not a Trump supporter or agree with those who are. I was simply responding to this:

Originally Posted by Drak

One of the qualifications for presidents has been a stable family values marriage, or the mirage of one

Neither of them qualified for that...

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

you'd have to penalize the company. We will tax you XXX% if you try to bring goods from outside the US back in. Then it may offset the discrepancy. Yes goods will be more expensive. That shirt is now $30.

And then that country responds with a tariff on US goods which makes already expensive US manufacturing even less viable for bringing money into the country.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

Mexicans are the most self-loathing people you'll meet, especially those with more Spanish blood than Mexicans. The ones who voted Trump are more of Spanish descent than the average Mexican. It's very weird. You really need to understand their culture to understand their voting behaviors, which I didn't get until I had to work with the community itself.

Of it could be that legal immigrants and those who have been in the U.S. for a generation or two resent the illegal immigrants for the same reason the local whites do - for driving down wages. It could also be that minorities sometimes vote on issues other than race.

Originally Posted by opendoor

I guess the question is, what exactly is so bleak about life in the US, particularly for the white voters that made up most of Trump's support? The unemployment rate is as low as it has been in the last 15 years, real median income has gone up nearly 10% in the last 4 years and is approaching the highest levels in modern US history, cost of living relative to income has gone down, and crime is quite low by US standards.

We're in an era where economic growth (and stagnation) are localized. The educated who work in a large city could be doing well while the less educated who live in a small town 100 miles away are experiencing job loss and declining opportunity.

Originally Posted by pylon

This whole thing sucks huge. But there's nobody to blame but Clinton's supporters. They should have come out in absolute droves. They didn't, and here we are. President Rapey McPussgrabber. I would like to know how many people sitting in her little after party, gaping in horror at what was going on, actually took the time to cast a vote. Nobody took Trump seriously, and thought this was a lock. I would absolutely love to see, how many registered DEM voters vs. REP voters didn't cast a vote. I have a feeling it would be very telling.

It's election day. You drop everything and vote.

The figure I've seen is 5 million fewer Democrats voted for Clinton than voted for Obama. However, citizens are perfectly within their rights to choose not to vote at all if they don't like any of the candidates.

Maybe the problem is the way the nomination process of both parties yields such unappealing candidates. Is is money? Media scrutiny? Ideological litmus tests?