Toronto is no good

[Vedder]

I give credit to Treliving for being aggressive because I don’t think passive approaches win cups. Unfortunately for him (and us), he has a very poor perception of asset value, and can’t evaluate player or coaching talent effectively at all. MLSE likely should have cut ties when he proposed the Laughton trade, a clear sign history was repeating itself.

Should be the end of the line for him after this disaster season, particularly if the leafs watch another team draft relatively high with their pick.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Right after the Tkachuk trade and the signing of Huberdeau, a large number of posters wanted to erect a statue of him.

Not me, and this was a discussion after Conroy had already been gm for a bit.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It's easy to criticize in hindsight, but you have to evaluate a GM's moves in real time. At the time of those actions (Tkachuk and Huberdeau), they looked pretty good, and he did well with what he had.

Then things went to crap. Now, everything he did looks terrible.

Many people didn't see the point in panic signing Huby. Many also wanted the rebuild package instead of the Florida trade package for chucky. The Mony trade was also controversial at the time.

I've hated Brad's work since he bought out Brouwer to sign problem child Neal (a well known nuisance, that other teams moved on from willingly). Even before that, when he signed Raymond and Hiller in the McDavid draft season when we were mid rebuild, I didn't like his Process.

Looks like he's doing solid work destroying Torontos future, my favourite thing he's done so far is refuse to sign here.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Many people didn't see the point in panic signing Huby. Many also wanted the rebuild package instead of the Florida trade package for chucky. The Mony trade was also controversial at the time.

I've hated Brad's work since he bought out Brouwer to sign problem child Neal (a well known nuisance, that other teams moved on from willingly). Even before that, when he signed Raymond and Hiller in the McDavid draft season when we were mid rebuild, I didn't like his Process.

Looks like he's doing solid work destroying Torontos future, my favourite thing he's done so far is refuse to sign here.

More people wanted Huberdeau signed long term than wanted a rebuild package.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It's easy to criticize in hindsight, but you have to evaluate a GM's moves in real time. At the time of those actions (Tkachuk and Huberdeau), they looked pretty good, and he did well with what he had.

Then things went to crap. Now, everything he did looks terrible.

I would say my main and constant criticism of Treliving during his tenure was his complete lack of placing any value on draft picks. This year will be exceptional to this statement but a team like Carolina has the proper approach, always be trying to accumulate picks and then use the players drafted in trades if you want to improve your team.

[Strange Brew]

Lots of people were critical of Treliving during his tenure, to say it’s only people using hindsight is flat wrong.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I would say my main and constant criticism of Treliving during his tenure was his complete lack of placing any value on draft picks. This year will be exceptional to this statement but a team like Carolina has the proper approach, always be trying to accumulate picks and then use the players drafted in trades if you want to improve your team.

100%

Liked some trades, didn't like others (which is how it's going to go), but yes, the constant burning of picks, like they have little value, was frustrating.

When you're going all in? Sure. But he did it every year, even with very average teams.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Lots of people were critical of Treliving during his tenure, to say it’s only people using hindsight is flat wrong.

Well, good thing no one said that then.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Lots of people were critical of Treliving during his tenure, to say it’s only people using hindsight is flat wrong.

Sure, but some were complaining he made no big moves. Then others complained about his big moves. Then some complained he brought in Huberdeau and wouldn’t be able to sign him. Then some complained about the signing.

At any given time he had critics. But at least here you could see the thinking even if you didn’t agree with it. In Toronto, not so much.

[Jay Random]

Like most GMs, Treliving started well and ended badly. Most GMs get fired eventually, so it's only natural that they end badly. Sometimes they start off badly and never get any better: see Risebrough, Doug.

The biggest thing I fault Treliving for is his incomprehensible choices when hiring coaches. The second biggest thing is not the Gaudreau-Huberdeau mess – nobody saw either half of that coming – but the Hamonic trade.

Hamonic was a good player to acquire and filled a need, but Treliving paid far too much for him. (I think I said at the time that he ‘gave too much for his whistle’ – from Benjamin Franklin's story about giving all his pennies for a tin whistle as a boy, without asking the price first. If I didn't post it here, I certainly said it to other people.)

I still believe that the Flames thought they had a deal with Gaudreau right up to the moment when they didn't. And nobody, on CP or elsewhere, expected Huberdeau to have the single largest drop in point production in NHL history immediately after he was signed. That whole situation would make any GM look like a dunce.

Treliving definitely traded away far too many draft picks, and then lessened the impact of the picks he had left by trading down to get more volume at the expense of quality. You can't keep your farm system full if you sleep through the first two rounds of the draft year after year. He's repeated that error in Toronto, where, to be fair, they were already spending picks for questionable players under Dubas.

If I had to sum up Treliving's faults in one word, it would be impatience. He tries to reach for deals that aren't there (hence the ‘in on everything’ insult) and tends to jump on bad deals when he should stand pat (hence Neal and Brouwer as well as Hamonic).

He's not a stupid man, but he doesn't seem to have the temperament to realize that the ‘process’ he loves to talk about can't be rushed without spoiling the results. As a wise but vulgar man said, it takes a woman nine months to have a baby, no matter how many men you put on the job.

[kaddy]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I would say my main and constant criticism of Treliving during his tenure was his complete lack of placing any value on draft picks. This year will be exceptional to this statement but a team like Carolina has the proper approach, always be trying to accumulate picks and then use the players drafted in trades if you want to improve your team.

Treliving has pretty much gutted Tor now. Not many picks and not many blue chip prospects left.

https://capwages.com/teams/toronto_maple_leafs

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by kaddy

Treliving has pretty much gutted Tor now. Not many picks and not many blue chip prospects left.

The Leafs were already short of picks and prospects when Treliving got there. He's definitely made matters even worse, but that's been an organizational failing for some time.

[Calgary4LIfe]

If we are using hindsight - and why not?, Treliving had experience and other hockey front office people to help him make these decisions, right? - then I would say his first big mistake came in the first season he got hired. He said: "What keeps me up at night is where are the goals going to come from?"


This was supposed to be a team that was rebuilding, but he was already trying to compete? Then the Flames make the playoffs, but he calls them 'unsustainable' - so he makes a few win-now moves?


Hindsight is 20/20, but maybe he shouldn't have been so worried about how the 2014-15 team performed, but instead, focused more on how they developed? He did just get hired by an organization a year after the rebuild announcement.


I had no issue with the Dougie Hamilton trade either - it was great value, and Hamilton fit the age of the team. However, again... was this really the right move? This is where i say the first domino fell. Let me explain.


In the long run, would the Flames be better off with using the 1st and two 2nd round picks on Dougie Hamilton? Or would they be better off using those picks to draft players? Maybe they would have drafted Kyle Connor, and Aho or Hintz? That's a second line right there to play under Gaudreau-Monahan (or mix it up). Plus, they had Bennett as well. They likely would have face-planted still as those were young players, and Tkachuk would still have been drafted that year. Now, it is really cherry picking as who knows what players Calgary would have taken, but that was a really good and deep draft. There were lots of options available. On top of this, Carolina was really dead-set on getting bigger and harder to play against - maybe Lindholm for Ferland and Fox would have been enough, if you see Hamilton and Hanifin as being a wash.


I think it further fed into forcing this team to be better sooner than they were ready, and ended up leading up to the Hamonic trade. Maybe the Flames draft Dobson. Pretty good lineup down the road with Giordano - Brodie, Andersson - Dobson as your top 4. Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm as your top line, and Bennett - Aho - Tkachuk as your 2nd line, with Backlund and Frolik being an elite shut-down 3rd line.


Who knows? That rebuild could have go so many other ways, even with Todd Button that year deciding to take Kucherov in the 2nd round instead of gambling before Treliving even arrived in Calgary.


The point is, the single biggest mistake that Treliving made as a GM was start the process of trying to compete too early. Then he just kept feeding into it. In Toronto, he has been making the same mistakes - giving up futures for win-now players, but still getting the 'mix' wrong. Overpaying for depth that isn't needed as it doesn't move the needle.


What really bugs me about Treliving in that final year was how he did his media tour after everyone was excited about the Tkachuk trade, and thinking that maybe Calgary was an even better team than they were the season before. He was even on CBC News with Hanomansing. Then after that season went sideways, there wasn't a peep. Just crickets. He didn't even make himself available on garbage day, and then just left the organization without a single public word. I found that to be a little classless, from a guy who was really seasoned and really professional in the media. That's just my point of view anyway, even though I had wanted him gone for a couple of seasons by then.


I in part really wanted Conroy as the GM for mostly 2 reasons:


1) He had a front-row seat of how the first rebuild failed - trying to be too aggressive too soon.
2) He is a good scout and has an eye for talent, and worked really closely with the scouts.


I just hope that Conroy just keeps showing patience over the next couple of seasons, and doesn't give-into the whole "Canadian Market is impatient with rebuilds".


I guess we will see what happens.


I am curious what Treliving has to say tomorrow. Will be interesting!

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

If we are using hindsight - and why not?, Treliving had experience and other hockey front office people to help him make these decisions, right? - then I would say his first big mistake came in the first season he got hired. He said: "What keeps me up at night is where are the goals going to come from?"


This was supposed to be a team that was rebuilding, but he was already trying to compete? Then the Flames make the playoffs, but he calls them 'unsustainable' - so he makes a few win-now moves?


Hindsight is 20/20, but maybe he shouldn't have been so worried about how the 2014-15 team performed, but instead, focused more on how they developed? He did just get hired by an organization a year after the rebuild announcement.


I had no issue with the Dougie Hamilton trade either - it was great value, and Hamilton fit the age of the team. However, again... was this really the right move? This is where i say the first domino fell. Let me explain.


In the long run, would the Flames be better off with using the 1st and two 2nd round picks on Dougie Hamilton? Or would they be better off using those picks to draft players? Maybe they would have drafted Kyle Connor, and Aho or Hintz? That's a second line right there to play under Gaudreau-Monahan (or mix it up). Plus, they had Bennett as well. They likely would have face-planted still as those were young players, and Tkachuk would still have been drafted that year. Now, it is really cherry picking as who knows what players Calgary would have taken, but that was a really good and deep draft. There were lots of options available. On top of this, Carolina was really dead-set on getting bigger and harder to play against - maybe Lindholm for Ferland and Fox would have been enough, if you see Hamilton and Hanifin as being a wash.


I think it further fed into forcing this team to be better sooner than they were ready, and ended up leading up to the Hamonic trade. Maybe the Flames draft Dobson. Pretty good lineup down the road with Giordano - Brodie, Andersson - Dobson as your top 4. Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm as your top line, and Bennett - Aho - Tkachuk as your 2nd line, with Backlund and Frolik being an elite shut-down 3rd line.


Who knows? That rebuild could have go so many other ways, even with Todd Button that year deciding to take Kucherov in the 2nd round instead of gambling before Treliving even arrived in Calgary.


The point is, the single biggest mistake that Treliving made as a GM was start the process of trying to compete too early. Then he just kept feeding into it. In Toronto, he has been making the same mistakes - giving up futures for win-now players, but still getting the 'mix' wrong. Overpaying for depth that isn't needed as it doesn't move the needle.


What really bugs me about Treliving in that final year was how he did his media tour after everyone was excited about the Tkachuk trade, and thinking that maybe Calgary was an even better team than they were the season before. He was even on CBC News with Hanomansing. Then after that season went sideways, there wasn't a peep. Just crickets. He didn't even make himself available on garbage day, and then just left the organization without a single public word. I found that to be a little classless, from a guy who was really seasoned and really professional in the media. That's just my point of view anyway, even though I had wanted him gone for a couple of seasons by then.


I in part really wanted Conroy as the GM for mostly 2 reasons:


1) He had a front-row seat of how the first rebuild failed - trying to be too aggressive too soon.
2) He is a good scout and has an eye for talent, and worked really closely with the scouts.


I just hope that Conroy just keeps showing patience over the next couple of seasons, and doesn't give-into the whole "Canadian Market is impatient with rebuilds".


I guess we will see what happens.


I am curious what Treliving has to say tomorrow. Will be interesting!

Agree with everything. However, just want to chime in on something. Business guys like Treliving, know they have to sales pitch during the interview process to the President and/or Ownership. Remember Burke with the Leafs also got the job in Toronto by "expediting the rebuild" by doing the Kessel deal and other deals to get it on. In order to survive in the corporate world you have to promise and deliver on said targets. I would put money on it his sales pitch was to expedite the process to not only make the playoffs but get deeper. That's money to ownership's ears, literally!


All this said, I have no idea what Conroy's value proposition was when he first interviewed, and if along the way the goal changed with ownership. We'll see soon enough, but it's sounding like a rebuild is happening, whether planned or not.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This was supposed to be a team that was rebuilding, but he was already trying to compete? Then the Flames make the playoffs, but he calls them 'unsustainable' - so he makes a few win-now moves?

As I said – impatience.

Trying to speed things up after 2015 didn't actually hurt that much, since the team faceplanted badly enough to draft Tkachuk. But Treliving definitely kept trying to hurry the build after that, and it just doesn't work. In the end the team got only two 100-point seasons out of that cycle, and that just won't cut it.