Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG
I disagree that anyone is saying don't ask. They are saying find an appropriate time to ask. And no one is saying it is harassment to ask.
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Yes, but a significant proportion of people are socially inept, or have poor filters. They aren't exactly clear on what's appropriate, or lack the self-discipline to ensure they never act improperly.
My wife is like that. She says exactly what's on her mind, with no forethought to how it will make someone feel. I've seen her swear up a blue storm in totally unsuitable situations, and when I mention it to her later she doesn't even realize she's done it. She has suffered social consequences for her lack of filter. No doubt there are people who find her brash and offputting. There are also people who find her gregarious and fun.
When you get into sexual dynamics, things get even murkier. Social ineptitude is more prevalent in men than in women. Socially inept men are likely to be clumsy in their approaches to women. They might see a gambit work well for another guy, and try it themselves, not understanding the different context (the other guy is more confident, he knew the woman well before he made the gambit, she was sending off signals that she welcomed an advance). That guy's grasp of a shoulder, or ironic "that's what
she said" joke gets a positive reaction. His clumsy effort doesn't. It's creepy. But he genuinely doesn't understand why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG
The Dongle joke again is a don't make dick jokes at work. That seems like a reasonable standard of care. The consequence was harsh and I hope he sued for wrongful dismissal but it isn't difficult not to make dick jokes.
So while the I don't want this to happen to me fear is real it's not a rational fear for people who behave within the norms. And these Norms are clearly defined in corporate hand books for work related ones.
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Some people find it easy to be totally buttoned-down at work. Others don't. Personally, I'm a self-conscious and self-disciplined person. I'm confident I've never broken any HR regulations. I'm also a completely different person at work and away from work. To the point where once I get to know co-workers well and go out for drinks with them, they're astonished at how outgoing and fun I can be. They ask why they never see 'this guy' at work. The answer is I strictly regulate my behaviour at all times when I'm a work. But some people do not find that easy at all.
There are two problems with outrage culture:
1) It involves transitioning from a culture where norms are things that most people agree with most of the time, to a culture where 'inappropriate' means anything that could possibly make someone uncomfortable.
2) The penalties for merely inappropriate (rather than predatory) behaviour have become disproportionate. The people policing behavior act as though following these norms is easy for everyone, and all transgression is evidence of malice or a dangerous ignorance.