[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If the flames trade a core player as part of a component of getting back into the first round I think we can all safely assume there is no plan, there is no process and there is no hope for a competitive roster moving forward.

Considering I posted they would consider doing this just yesterday, I'm inclined towards there being no plan.

Originally Posted by Bingo

I get the despair and disappointment, but I'm always amazed how quickly people take things to the ditch.

Safely assume?

From your keyboard you can safely assume what is going on with the Flames GM and hockey operations based on the move of an unknown core player for a first round pick?

We can't safely assume anything.

First off that may not be true, or it might be true but part of a bigger conversation that has other GMs guessing and telling Friedman what they think.

However if part of the core is on the move.

The Flames as a group my have decided the time to move part of the defensive core to make room for the emerging core is now, so they're kicking tires on moving pieces (Giordano, Hamilton, Brodie, Hamonic) for forwards that can step in or futures, or packages that contain both.

Maybe they like Brodie for a 1st, Stone for a 3rd and promote Valimaki and Andersson.

But safely assume is such an over step based on literally nothing.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What's the plan then?

Trade 1st round pick for hamonic, keep core together, miss playoffs, deal core member to get 1st round pick back?

If that's the plan, does it sound like a good plan?

If that's not the plan, then I guess this season didn't go according to plan and they are changing things? Wouldn't that signify no plan?

I've seen this power struggle in other private businesses. So many plans there might as well not be one.

Afterall, this is what I said:



If the Plan from the start of the year has changed drastically by this point, to me that's an indication there is no plan. Otherwise, why not stick to it? Why not 'trust the process'? Process no good?

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well clearly they didn't plan to miss the playoffs, I guess you're being tongue in cheek.

I don't see much of a departure needed to get this rumour out there.

Adding Hamonic and Stone was always about fortifying d core one knowing full well that d core two was coming as well.

At some point they'd have to make room.

They may feel that that time is now, and are talking to teams at the GM meetings about current defensemen and in that the conversation has been around wingers, or forwards that can score and draft picks to replenish what they've moved.

I don't see moving veteran D as a sign of no plan as it was always the obvious plan to me, and hasn't really changed.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Well now the conversation has changed from moving a core piece to moving some jabroni 3rd pairing defender.

Mark Stone doesn't get you a 1st round draft pick in my opinion, so if they are trading into the 1st round, they are moving a 'core' player to do it.

So are you saying they are considering moving brodie or giordano, the only other two vets besides stone and hamonic, and that that was part of the plan last summer when they added hamonic? Sounds pretty 4 dimensional chessy to me.

Originally Posted by Bingo

I didn't change the conversation at all.

I said adding Hamonic and Stone was about fortifying the current core, I didn't say Stone was the principal piece they're looking to move for a first, though Mark might get you a first if you can get the Senators to give you their return for trading him.

The plan would always have been to move veteran defenseman when it was time to make space for young defenders breaking in. I have no idea what defenseman is on the move or being talked about, but I would assume no GM would have that in stone a year ago.

How has this conversation changed exactly?

Originally Posted by the2bears

Maybe the plan is being modified and altered due to the season not working out.

Seriously, this thread starts on a rumour/suggestion Flames are looking to add a 1st. And now we're discussing how they've unraveled and have no plan? Or too many plans which is no plan?

Assumptions are being made on how the off-season goes. I'm going to wait and see what actually happens.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

so who was the veteran defenseman being moved out that was part of the plan?

Originally Posted by Bingo

Already answered that.

They didn't need to have a "player X will be traded in 11.4 months" memo that they all carried around in their brief case.

June 2017 they drafted Valimaki making it two right and two left shooting defenseman that were considered above average prospects.

None of them were ready to step in on a team that they felt was a playoff ready team.

But when they are they would make room or trade them for equivalent prospects up front.

A year later it looks like Andersson is ready, Kylington has taken steps and Valimaki is seeing his projection bumped up.

Now they kick tires on the value of their existing defenseman and see what is out there for options.

This seems unlikely to you?

So we've gone from unnamed core player to veteran defender (which could be an unnamed core player).

So they didn't plan to miss the playoffs (indication the plan wasn't good?)

So (new) plan is move veteran defender to get back into 1st round/make room for new young player. Trade Brodie? Trade Giordano? Trade Hamilton? Only veterans D on the roster other than stone and hamonic who were just acquired. Unless you think the plan was sign stone and trade for hamonic and then deal them 12 months later (doesn't sound very plausible or like a very good plan).

Are the flames going to be able to move a defender for the same value they spent on hamonic and stone? Do you get a 1st and 2x2nds for Brodie? If not, that's a net loss of assets in my mind for a season you don't make the playoffs. Good Plan? Sticking with the process?

I think not making the playoffs when the team has spend 1st, 3x2nds, 2x3rds, 1x5th, 1x7th in a calendar year is not a very good plan. In my opinion, it is so all over the place that it speaks to competing plans with competing priorities.

Re-aquiring some of the picks traded away would, in my opinion, indicate backtracking on that plan, further solidfying that it was indeed not a very good plan.

If they have changed plans over the course of a single season from going for it to moving veteran defenders, I'd argue that's no plan, just a series of reactions.

An example of a plan was Tre moving Glencross and Russell regardless of the playoff position the team was in. That's a plan, and it was a good one.

Moving a ####load of draft picks and missing the playoffs doesn't strike me as a plan, it strikes me as a relative disaster that requires a new plan to dig themselves out of the problems created by the old plan.

So, to get back to my original point you took umbrage with, I'd say trying to recoup draft picks by dealing veteran roster players following a season of missing the playoffs is such a bad plan it's indicative of no plan. It reads more like a reaction than a strategy.