[wittynickname]

I was at work all day and a loooot happened in this thread in the meantime, so I'm going to try to hit a few points.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Some really solid points (backed up with data). It's a long read

http://electionado.com/canvas/1479173071893

So basically all our discussion about the economic climate, about coal mines closing down and manufacturing plants and panicking about the Regressive Left was pointless because when all's said and done, data shows that by and large Trump voters actually are racist and sexist? That the media blatantly misled American voters? That Comey was largely at fault for Trump's win?

That link just tells me we've all been giving Trump voters more credit than they deserve. Based on the information in that link, they didn't care about TPP/trade deals all that much, they were too busy being told that Hillary was a criminal and believing it because she's a woman and thus unfit to lead.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I absolutely agree that it is wrong for the President-elect to embrace those behaviors - and have said so.

I think Trump's campaign - and him, for that matter - was disgusting. The recent flair-up of violent and blatant racism has been disgusting and deeply concerning. There are some very serious underlying problems here.

That wasn't what was being discussed though. The discussion has been about dismissing all Trump voters as racist, or privileged or whatever. And that, IMO, is a big mistake. And only serves to fuel and escalate things.

And yet, based on the link Girlysports posted--a whole lot of Trump voters actually were racist, sexist, ticked off at the concept of white privilege, and would've voted for pro-Trade/pro-TPP Biden despite their economic standing.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

the schools should have never changed. When I was a kid and my brother who is a few years older went to elementary school we sang o canada and god save the queen every morning. Minorities had to adapt and value to Canadian life. I remember being 6 and having a fun part in a Christmas play.

And when I got to university it was survival... no safe-rooms or anything.

People who freak out about Christmas being marginalized annoy me beyond belief, because it's not just immigrants who don't celebrate Christmas. You have a huge number of Jewish people who don't celebrate Christmas--we need to be inclusive of them. There are people who celebrate any number of winter holidays, and people who don't celebrate any at all. We don't need to force people to celebrate Christmas. I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness who didn't celebrate Christmas, and the ability to easily opt out of Christmas events at school saved me a whole lot of stress and angst and bullying as a child. We have to support kids who don't celebrate Christmas as well.

Literally go to any store, any mall, any restaurant, turn on any TV or radio and you'll notice that Christmas has vomited all over everything. Christmas takes over literally 2 full months of the calendar year. Christmas is fine, no one is trying to stop Christmas.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It would be bad enough if social media were not intentionally programatic, but by its very design all of our online social interaction tends to be overseen by our own web-browsing activities. My Youtube feed is a mix of hockey highlights, political commentary (primarily from the left), religious debates, Christian apologetics, and historical documentaries. Recommendations for me on Netflix tend to follow the same pattern. The bubble of our own thinking is prone to becoming more and more insular without our even realising that it is occurring.

This is a big part of why I tend to comment so much in this thread, because for as much as many people are insulated in their little bubbles of like-minded people, I'm the polar opposite. I'm a liberal feminist who lives in a relatively liberal, mid-sized American city. Yet the county I work in is overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly Christian, overwhelmingly heavily pro-2nd Amendment. The county went 70% for Trump. I am surrounded by Trump voters. So while the people I choose to associate with are generally more liberal like myself, I deal with heavy conservatives on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I hope you realise how insultingly wrong it is for you to tell me that my desire to have the same freedom and respect as anyone else is akin to trying to shut people up because I'm a special snowflake.

I cannot possibly give this statement enough thanks. The unending condescension about "identity politics" is infuriating, when coming from people whose identities will never result in any discrimination/loss of rights/fear of safety.

Yes identity politics exist, because my existence as a woman makes me uniquely affected by men like Mike Pence and their anti-choice policies. Myself and many other women I know are making appointments for procedures such as obtaining IUDs and other forms of long term birth control, because we aren't sure how our access to those things will be affected by a GOP run White House/Congress/House/SCOTUS.

Gay people are uniquely affected by Pence's support of conversion therapy. Muslims are uniquely affected by Trump saying he's going to ban anyone of their faith from entering the country.

Yes, these are identity politics. But that is because our identities leave us vulnerable to the policies that the people in power are espousing.

Is there more emotion? Absolutely. Does it make us wrong? Not even a little bit. It's really easy to dismiss "identity politics" when your identity is not under fire.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I think Corsi covered this. It's hard to discuss these things without associating the ideas you're opposed to with people. For instance, the roots of much of the ideology I'm opposed to are the anti-capitalist, anti-Western academic left. But I'll try harder to frame these things in terms of ideas instead of people.

In general, the leftist parts of the Democratic party aren't anti-capitalist or anti-western. As a liberal myself, capitalism is fine--but not unfettered capitalism. There need to be regulations. There need to be checks and balances, because without them, corporations and the wealthy and the powerful crush the average worker. If you're comparing extreme, fringe leftists with people who are fighting for equal rights for the LGBT community, fighting against police brutality, and protecting a woman's right to choose, you're way off base.

Identity issues have only become the main ideological battle-ground in our society in the last 7 or 8 years, and yet I've been a liberal all my adult life. Moreover, it's possible to be liberal without feeling transgendered bathrooms are a vital cause that separates all decent people from the enemies of progress.

Really? Just now identity issues are brand new? What about suffrage? What about the civil rights era? What about the politics of the AIDS epidemic among the gay community in the 80s?

Identity politics have always been there, and until we actually obtain equality, they will continue to be part of the picture.

I call out illiberal sentiments wherever I see them being made unchallenged. I've been flamed countless times on the Globe and Mail forums for supporting immigration and defending Muslims from ugly bigotry. But the fact is in my world - the world of educated, liberal, urban Canada - I rarely come across racism and bigotry.

And yet you're more than happy to disregard my views on these issues, despite the fact that on a literal daily basis, I am dealing with the uneducated, racist, bigoted types who are a huge part of the population of suburban Pennsylvania. You don't see these people, but I do.

These are people I know, these are people I work with, these are clients who come into my salon. These are people I am related to. My experience with these people is valid and important, but all too often I'm told that these are "caricatures" and that it's "more complex" than what I'm saying. Yet those of us who live in the US and actually see these people are treated as if we don't know what we're talking about.


Me sitting here on this forum and saying racist police in Missouri are a bad thing achieves nothing other than let people know I'm a decent person. The people I know in real life already know I'm a decent person. I don't especially care what people on the internet think of me.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Yes, because it de-legitimizes the person's position for the wrong reason. You're essentially saying they're wrong because they're straight. Being straight makes them inherently less able to understand why a GSA is a good thing. It might be true that a person's experience as a gay man helps them develop a cogent, reasonable position about GSA's, but that position isn't valid because the person holding it is gay. More importantly, if you think GSAs are valuable, and I do, then this hypothetical guy is wrong. He's not wrong because he's straight, he's wrong for many other, objectively true reasons.

No one is saying it's wrong because they're straight. They don't have experience with the situation. A straight person doesn't have to worry about having an alliance with others to give them a place to feel supported, because straight people are inherently supported because it's the "norm." So this hypothetical guy still doesn't have the same view of the topic, because he has no grasp of the effect that something like a GSA can have, thus yes, his opinions are lacking a huge part of the equation. Without knowledge of the consequences, without experience being discriminated against, this person cannot get a full, 360 degree view of whether or not that GSA is valuable.

What comes across from in all this complaining about "identity politics" is a condescending subplot that because we're directly affected by certain policies, we cannot clearly think about or discuss said policies, because we're too emotionally involved.