[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

And I'm just saying that if you continue to try to shame people into accepting your politics and moral code in absolutist terms, they're going to continue to tell you to #### off, and vote for people like Trump (and Farage, and etc etc etc).

So in a world where you have Trump legitimizing the far-right, when an outlet like Breitbart who are incredibly hateful towards women, gays, blacks, Jews, etc, etc. now has a direct connection to the White House. When you have a world where Fox News is reinforcing the idea that there's a War On Christmas and a War On Men and a War On Christianity, when these things are patently, ridiculously untrue, how are people supposed to respond?

Just smile and nod and "boys will be boys" and move on?

Fox News, Sean Hannity, Alex Jones and the like are screaming into an echo chamber and riling up these people and legitimizing those base instincts, that any "outsider" is a threat. Hate crimes are increasing. Women's rights have been under attack more in the last 6 years than in decades.

Are we supposed to sit by and let those other forces influence them?

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

My issue with Islamism (not Islam, important distinction) is the group of people who are effectively the equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church, or worse - the ones who are actively committing, or supporting, murder, torture and in some cases rape of innocents with impunity. Being harsher on those people is warranted. Social conservatives are trying to pass laws to allow bakeries not to make wedding cakes for gay couples; Islamists want to cut those gay couples' heads off. If what passes for "social conservatism" in Pakistan managed to moderate itself to the point that it was the moral equivalent of the Christian right in America, I'd moderate my tone with them, just as soon as I finished doing cartwheels with glee.

It goes so much deeper than that. They want to make or keep it legal to fire someone if they're gay (that's legal in many states in the US), to keep it legal to refuse to rent an apartment to a gay couple, or to evict them based on that sexuality. It's discrimination in all its forms, it's why there are more homeless gay/trans youth than any other group in this country. Because we should be much better than those places where being gay is illegal and can get you killed--but we still have a long way to go. This society where we can't tell someone that "hey, discriminating against gay people is bigoted and wrong" legitimizes parents who kick their kids out when they come out of the closet.

Just like you're saying we can do better as the left, we can do better as a country, and just because we've gained some rights and made some progress doesn't mean we should just sit down and shut up and wait until this wave of regressionism is over because conservatives are going to dig in their heels.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Leaving aside your self-important elitism, my solution is to have conversations with these people without calling them names or deriding them, and explain why these issues are important and why they should see it your way. There are racists out there, there are genuinely terrible people who are beyond reaching, but there are a lot more people like my hypothetical electrician who are good, well-meaning and would probably agree with you on many things (or could at least be brought around to seeing and respecting your point) without you acting like they're a lower rung on the evolutionary ladder.

I'm reminded of a quote from Martin Luther King Jr:

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

The people who you worry about aren't the KKK. Those are the people you see coming, they're the ones that aren't a surprise. They're the fringe that no one really accepts or legitimizes, for the most part. It's the people who know better but don't want to deal with the ugliness of it that cause the issues. Because then you're just letting it slide, because hey, we can't tell them they're wrong, they'll get defensive.

Well yeah they'll get defensive. But progress is not easily won. The voting rights act came with peaceful men like MLK but it also came with big, ugly, violent protests and conflicts. They were all part of the process.

These conservative types are not easily going to step aside and allow progress to happen, and after 20 years of Fox News telling them that they're right, that if we could just shut up the elites, we could get back to the way things used to be. So now you have this generation that longs for the days of the 1950s, who are told again and again by their leaders and their media that it's this liberal agenda that's holding them back--when it's not that at all. What's holding them back is their desperation for the past. Their refusal to live in a world that's passed them by, their need for everyone around to coddle their antiquated world view.

Yes, as progressives and educated people on the coasts, we need to see the issues with rural America, with job loss and lack of education and all of those problems, but by the same token, they need to look at the actual world that's now around them and stop wishing for a return to the Good Old Days.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

the electrician is a good example.. not long ago a high school diploma was good enough for a good job in most of the country. These people paved the way for kids today to get a college education. Then somehow the 'educated' bar got raised to mean a college degree. Well imagine you're the mid40 year old with that high school education that used to be good enough, now this kids you helped into college are calling you stupid.

that would get anyone mad.

and yes, im still mad at comedians.

Or they could accept that they were more educated than their parents, and that their parents were more educated than their grandparents, realize that as time moves on, more information is available and thus the generations that come after them are going to inherently be smarter and perhaps they're worth listening to.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The rudest, most belligerent, divisive and disliked candidate in history won the election less than a week ago after threatening violence if he didn't win, and the analysis that "the left" isn't polite enough. Sheesh.

"You just don't understand his base...".

I don't. I never will. Far as I'm concerned, anyone who wants this guy to be the President is probably beyond saving with politeness, soothsaying, and understanding.

One side is telling conservatives that they need to broaden their world view and be more accepting.

The other side is calling Mexicans rapists, saying that trans women are going to rape their daughters, that anyone from the Middle East is a terrorist who is going to kill their neighbors.

But sure, it's the left that's being insulting.

Originally Posted by accord1999

The rudest, most belligerent, divisive and disliked candidate in history won the election less than a week ago against all predictions because his campaign flipped several long-time Democratic strongholds, often improving on Romney by 10 points or more, by using an economic strategy and the analysis is that he only won because of racists, xenophobes and misogynist?

He won because a whole lot of people decided that racism, xenophobia and misogyny weren't deal-breakers. Their personal concerns were more important than the safety and well-being of their fellow human beings.

Hasan Minhaj put it wonderfully on the Daily Show. It's not that these people all hate Muslims/LGBT people/women--it's just that they literally don't care about them.