Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague
Yup, you're right. Mea culpa. I absolutely should not have used that term to describe Jim Benning. Incompetent was the much better word.
Now that that's done, want to set aside the ad hominem and engage the substance?
There's no grey area here. Winning the hearts and minds of people who are being sexist? If they can't recognize their own error here and say, "yes, I can see why I'm wrong there, in future I'll make an effort to refrain from talking that way", it reflects poorly on them and they should receive a proportionate amount of shaming.
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It wasn't an ad hominem attack, it was at the very heart of the subject being discussed. I don't know you from Adam, but I couldn't help but notice the glaring inconsistency in your stance especially in light of your lecturing tone that defines most of your posts. Hope you didn't take it as a character assassination, it was more of a wtf moment for me than anything.
And yes, winning the hearts and minds of racists and sexists should be the goal I would assume. To change opinions and beliefs over time to create a better, more inclusive world would mean that has happened to some degree. However, I believe some people don't care about that as much as they do shaming people and reveling in the feeling of being superior. Shaming does have it's place (neo Nazis for instance should be shamed) but I think some people are more interested in shaming because it makes them feel self righteous more than they are doing it to enact actual social change.
Even if you choose not to believe it, there is a grey area in this debate. That's where a great majority of people reside that offend you so. They are the people, as time goes by and society continues to evolve, who will shift their and their children's views over the course of their lives. Many of them will end up helping the cause of inclusion if given enough time, even if don't believe it now. Lots of them are regular people that you see every day like family members, neighbors, teachers, lawyers, poor people, rich people, people from all walks of life.
They aren't all scumbags who need a 'proportionate amount of shaming' just because their attitudes and beliefs haven't quite caught up with society's progress as a whole. Take me for instance, ten years ago I would've dropped words like ###### and fag without blinking an eye, now I would never, ever use those words. Hell, I was against gay marriage at the time as well, now I am 100% for it. Was I shamed into changing my ways? No. I realized the world was changing and I needed to change with it. My primary influences were some progressive family and friends that I have that altered my view through time and thoughtful discussion. Perhaps being shamed random internet people like you would've worked just as well, but I doubt it.
My point was I don't think anonymous internet message boards are the place that will facilitate that change. Sure they can have rules in place to uphold their own standards but it's likely not changing anyone's minds because many people would rather spew vitriol in a internet debate than actually discuss the subject itself when it comes up as a topic. Not labeling everyone as doing that but it is an inevitability when you have a debate where anyone in the world can chime in at any point, each with their own motivations for doing so.