[Thor]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Labelled the points just so I can address them individually:

1. I think you know why a certain amount of hostility exists. If you constantly excuse the objectification of women as "science" then you're going to get a negative reaction.

So do we not have the discussion because its not easy? How do we be better people, better sexual beings if we can't talk about the science as best we understand it. It reminds me of the Masters of sex TV series about the man who spearheaded the study into sex for men and women, he was ostracized and ridiculed for even daring to look into it, but the result was a groundbreaking body of evidence that helped countless millions enjoy a better sex life, and for many at the time (the 50s) even learning how to achieve an orgasm, as women back then had very little enjoyment from sex due to the old male based views on sex.

2. There is nothing healthy and fun about "5/10, would not bang" or "look at his wife, gross!". Who is that fun for? Who is it healthy for? As said above, we are a highly evolved species capable of a great many thing, so to say that men objectify women because of evolution not only excuses it, but does so in a fairly silly way. Considering the amount of men who are able to separate their biological reactions from their outwardly reactions, I'd say it's a lame excuse.

I agree, that we should always choose to be better, and I do in my own life. Ignoring the evidence because its uncomfortable is silly in my opinion, isn't our ultimate goal to learn and do better with that information to help us be better human beings? Again I am not excusing crass behavior because of evolutionary biology, far from it, man should be aware of their desires and understand their own sexuality better, and in no way does this ever suggest that it gives them justification on being jerks or making women feel uncomfortable.

3. This whole point is dangerously condescending. This thread isn't about what you are/are not allowed to be aroused by, nor is anyone in this thread uncomfortable talking about sex. Suggesting FireFly is not calm, or rational enough to have a discussion about sexuality is probably incredibly insulting. (Granted, you may not have meant it, but be careful).

I understand that, I do, I thought throughout I was quite thoughtful and it just was frustrating to see her anger. I'm a really easy going guy, and love to discuss tough issues, its naive of me to not expect some resistance, I just wish we could talk about difficult and uncomfortable things without getting too heated about it. I also don't think its fair to call our understanding of human sexuality condescending, if the data supports it no matter how uncomfortable it is, we should accept it and learn from it. Nowhere does this suggest we just act like animals and never consider the feelings and not step into the shoes of others, empathy is always a must in life, never more so than in something like human sexuality.

4. Who has said that in this thread? Where is the discussion about how men who look at those pictures shouldn't or are misogynists for doing so? It hasn't been said once as far as I can tell, so who are you disagreeing with? If anything, most of the women have specifically said there is nothing wrong with the pictures or those who enjoy looking at beautiful people.

I thought Firefly was suggesting it, if she was not I apologize for suggesting she did, I did ask her to clarify. Otherwise this whole discussion has been quite interesting, CP usually steps above most other places where a discussion like this would have long ago moved to the lowest common denominator.