Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
I dunno, sometimes if someone's being a jerk telling them a jerk is the only real thing to do. And I'm the one that's usually way far on the "less emotion and more irrational discussion" scale.
I agree that myself I wouldn't have used some of the words or phrases that some used, but otoh I didn't think they were that inappropriate..
Why not? If I'm a jerk all the time, I'm not going to know if no one ever tells me. If enough people tell me I'm a jerk then maybe I'll figure out it's me.. though if I'm a jerk maybe not lol.
This discussion won't change his views anyway; you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.
Driving someone away does have one positive impact though; they aren't around to spread their views and make others who share them feel they are valid. I don't care if someone is racist/homophobic/whatever, but if they hide because they can't defend their opinions then that's good because it doesn't spread, it doesn't embolden others who are racist/homophobic, and hopefully will keep them out of the decision making process so things like this prom can continue with everyone having a good time.
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The way I see it is that it's largely a matter of choosing the appropriate action for the intended result and the given context. If this weren't an internet discussion board, and one of a huge number of instantly accessible communities available online then calling someone a jerk may cause them to reconsider their opinion. As is, the community on this discussion board is so distant and so disposable for someone in a place like Mississippi that calling someone a jerk is not likely to have any bearing on how they think about their views. That person can immediately have the reinforcement of their views from their real life community and can also immediately access other online communities that will support those views. All that calling the person a jackass or a disgusting human being accomplishes is shutting down the lines of communication.
If someone believes that the discussion won't change narbeZ's views anyways, then maybe the result they're looking for is just to say "F*** off! You're not welcome in our community here!" and have that person go away. I guess that mission has been accomplished. Maybe that's the culture that people want on this board. It's certainly not a real discussion though. Furthermore, while driving someone away may mean that they don't share their views in this community, it just makes them more likely to find reinforcement in other communities that share those views, which I'm sure are more immediate and powerful for a person living in Mississippi than this Flames message board is. Again, all it's doing is shutting down communication and ultimately taking away an opportunity for that person to change their views by engagement with people who disagree. The communities that support those viewpoints continue to exist and reinforce the views we find objectionable.
I also disagree with the notion that you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place. In fact, I'd say that's totally contrary to what most learning actually is. Most beliefs that people hold haven't been reasoned into, but are formed through experience or passed onto them from their community. It's through explanation and demonstration that things are different from preconceptions that we do learn. I'm sure everyone on this board has been reasoned out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.
Although this isn't really part of my argument, I have a lot of experience dealing with issues like this. I am a Canadian born white guy who is the child of Scottish immigrants. I now live in China and am married into a Chinese family with a wife who has only once ever left China. I work in an international school which focuses heavily on character education and where I both deal with children representing 15+ different nationalities (one of whom is in grade 9 and openly gay) and I manage teachers representing 10+ nationalities (another of whom is gay). I deal with issues like this on a daily basis both in my work environment and in my family life. I am very familiar with the way these situations tend to play out and how the nuances of communities and social pressures affect people. Social pressures affect people when they are either forced into being a part of a community or are accepted into it, but insulting people based on the difference between their views and the views of a community which they are not tied into does nothing but shut down communication and lead to a reinforcement of their prejudices.