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Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars
The other side causes mass civilian casualties with its military actions (far more civilian casualties than the Israelis suffer), and continues to seek more and more land and settlements. I am aware that it is difficult for the Israelis to destroy militants because they, like the cowards they are, hole up in civilian houses in civilian areas, but that does not alter the suffering the Palestinians go through.
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What do you call mass civilian casualties? Do you mean the IDF causes this? The cause is the use of human shields. Launching rockets from schools or hiding in civilian areas leads to civilian deaths. That is not the IDF's fault, and in fact the IDF minimizes civilian casualties by putting troops on the ground. Do you think for a second Canadian or US or any other military on the planet goes through what the IDF goes through? Where do you get that there should be an equal number of casualties? The Israeli government has infrastructure in place to save lives; Hamas has 'infrastructure' in place to cause death.
I am curious, what is wrong with the settlements? Build up on unoccupied land is the only bargaining chip Israel has...the longer it takes to negotiate, the more land will be settled by Jews. If the Palestinians want it to stop, simply get rid of Hamas and start negotiating. This is clearly not what is creating suicide bombers and I doubt there is any connection.
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Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars
My father's family is mostly Arab-Israeli, but with a few Palestinians who couldn't get into Israel. None of these people hate Jews or want violence. All of them constantly feel oppressed and dislike their lives. Look, I'm aware of the sociopolitical history. I am not in any way suggesting the Israeli state has 'no right to exist' or whatever. But I am not blind, and in fact am personally affected through family by the state most Palestinians live in, even those not in refugee camps and such. You have to understand, no matter how much you argue the point that there was no Palestine, that the land was not owned by the people, in actual effect what you have is a people whose immediate ancestors in many cases were driven out of their homes, their land taken away, and their success and often education meaning absolutely nothing in the aftermath. Did the Arabs invite much of the aggression? Yes. The sad reality is that 'the Arabs' does not cover the innocent victims of the whole thing.
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When good people do nothing, evil prevails. Had Palestinians felt this way, there would be peace already, they cannot allow another generation to be bullied by homicidal zealots.
I have never argued about who was there first or anything like that. My point is simple: The country is the way it is right now, and the people have to figure out a way to make it work. I do not buy the argument though that people were driven out of their homes. From what I understand, there were a few instances of this, but on the larger scale this was not the case. The refugee argument is that in a nutshell: Jews did not force people out of the country (except for small isolated incidents), yet more jews were forced out of Arab nations.. A few massive wars resulted in people coming and going, but those that stayed are happy citizens. Many lies are now repeated as truth, but here is my view:
Sure people left, most simply because of anticipation of Arab liberation, or expulsion of Jews from Arab states. But if you are going to talk about right of return and compensation, then you need to look at international precedents. What the precedents will show is that Israel is doing exactly what it should be doing - nothing, since that is what the victor has always done. The question is why aren't Palestinian allies helping? I certainly do not have a solution for what to do for those that lost everything, but are Japanese suing the US for what happened to their houses in Hiroshima? What took place in Israel clearly was a far gentler 'expulsion' then the sacking of London or what took place over Germany - the difference is the potential violence of the terrorist groups that now exist and the fact that any let down in security results in bombs going off in restaurants. For this reason alone I agree with what Israel is doing, and unfortunately normal people like your family wind up suffering.
I do prefer debating with you though, since I am not hearing the hateful catch phrases some others throw around.