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Old 11-25-2008, 03:31 PM   #101
octothorp
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Originally Posted by cyclone3483 View Post
He did act against God's will. In the gospels of Mark and Matthew, Satan tempted Jesus in the desert, including Matthew 4 which chronicles Satan's attempt to get Jesus to worship him instead of God.
You missed the part where I said Old Testament. In about 200 BC or so, biblical interpretations changed significantly and Lucifer and Satan were already being scholastically conflated as being the same character. Jesus' contemporaries were writing about a newly created character very different from anyone in the ancient Hebrew texts. If you believe in the bible of a literal and infallible account of the will of God, then I think we'll have a hard time finding any common ground to debate this. That said, I'll address your comments from my own perspective.

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In the 10th verse, Jesus says "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' " Satan was not worshipping God and was inciting others not to serve God, both clearly against God's will.
Jesus' disciples were writing about this newly created character, because it fit with the theology of the time. But even then, he's still essentially playing the same role as the Accuser of ancient Hebrew texts. I think any Christian would agree that God tests Christians' faith on a regular basis. Here, you can easily interpret it as God testing Jesus through Satan.
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Moreso, in Luke 10, Jesus said, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you." The Lord's enemy is clearly Satan in this context and he was no longer a member of heaven's citizenry.
Again, this is reacting to the theology surrounding Satan at the time, which was in turn based on a highly suspect interpretation of Isaiah's prophecies.
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Please, if you are going to say something is in the Bible, you should provide the chapter so people can verify for themselves. Otherwise, it should be considered as potentially a lie or a misinterpretation.
Fine. Isaiah 14: 3-20.
When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
(...)
How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

(I'm quoting just the relevant sections here, but if you want to add in the rest, go ahead). The reference to Day Star is from a caananite story about how the morning star rises in the east above the sun, but soon disappears - sort of an Icarus myth. The translation of Day Star (or Morning Star) is Lucifer. The passage is about how the Babylonian King is being way too high and mighty and seeking to make himself a God on earth. It's a fairly clear passage, especially considering the context of the rest of Isaiah, where the conflict with the Babylonians (now often called Assyrians) dominates a lot of the book.
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