OECD calls for Western Nations to stop subsidizing biofuel

[EddyBeers]

http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...1-ArticlePage2

OECD calls for Western Nations to stop subsidizing biofuel, citing the fact that biodfuel and ethanol are likely worse for the enviroment then big oil...just wondering what people's thoughts are on this report?

[Agamemnon]

Isn't the main point of biofuel to more efficiently use waste organic products as energy and reduce dependency on other raw forms of energy (ie oil)?

What are the environmental benefits (supposedly) of biofuel? The name 'biofuel' certainly sounds green enough. Is it? Anyone?

[Bill Bumface]

My thoughts are that biofuel is a complete joke and it would take some sever technological breakthroughs to make it anything more than a joke.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Isn't the main point of biofuel to more efficiently use waste organic products as energy and reduce dependency on other raw forms of energy (ie oil)?

What are the environmental benefits (supposedly) of biofuel? The name 'biofuel' certainly sounds green enough. Is it? Anyone?

The complete pipedream of biofuel is that it's carbon neutral. Whatever CO2 your car spits out burning biofuel is absorbed by wonderfurl green corn fields so they can produce you new biofuel.

The problem is seeing what it takes to run a fertilizer plant and a biofuel refinery will quickly make you realize what a farce it is.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

The complete pipedream of biofuel is that it's carbon neutral. Whatever CO2 your car spits out burning biofuel is absorbed by wonderfurl green corn fields so they can produce you new biofuel.

The problem is seeing what it takes to run a fertilizer plant and a biofuel refinery will quickly make you realize what a farce it is.

Ethanol gives you a great increase in horsepower coupled with a great decrease in fuel economy.

[burn_baby_burn]

I thought the whole point of biofuel was to have a renewable energy source.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Ethanol gives you a great increase in horsepower coupled with a great decrease in fuel economy.

As well as potentially buggering up your fuel pump.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

I thought the whole point of biofuel was to have a renewable energy source.

No, it was and is a clever farm subsidy.

[teamchachi]

Originally Posted by Barnes

No, it was and is a clever farm subsidy.

Good call. Can you say "midwest vote buying"?


I have a friend who designs and builds ethanol plants for a living. He does it because its his job, but thinks they are pretty much a complete waste of time...

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

I thought the whole point of biofuel was to have a renewable energy source.

It is renewable in the sense that you just plant more and you have more fuel available to you.

But if all farmers started growing corn for fuel consumption, what happens to corn or other agriculture for the rest of the world for our consumption?
Wheat fields would be reduced, since there is more money in corn, raising the price of bread, flour, pasta, etc basically anything and everything.

It looks good on paper, the ripple effect would be too drastic to be viable.

Personally.. the best solution with as little impact to our way life is hydrogen. Sure "gas" stations would need to be upgraded and such, but the infrasctucture changes needed in order to get hydrogen vehicles on the road, would be a lot less than the changes required for battery powered vehicles.

[photon]

Where does the hydrogen come from though?

Electrolysis of water, which requires huge energy which means burning more fossil fuels.

Unless the hydrogen is created from things like solar, wind, or nuclear, it's probably more efficient to burn the gas directly in the engine than it is to burn the gas in a plant to create hydrogen and then burn the hydrogen in the car.

[JohnnyB]

Biofuels sure are a bad idea. Nothing like running out of oil to burn, so getting on to just burning food. Rather than face further increases in the cost of fueling our cars, lets have everyone face increases in the cost of filling our bellies. Excellent trade off.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Biofuels sure are a bad idea. Nothing like running out of oil to burn, so getting on to just burning food. Rather than face further increases in the cost of fueling our cars, lets have everyone face increases in the cost of filling our bellies. Excellent trade off.

not so bad - maybe some people will slow down on the cheetos and lose a bit of weight. more expensive food = less obesity = healthier = less health care costs.


(yes, this post is not 100% serious)

[Ford Prefect]

This whole biofuel/farm subsidy scam irks me. I'd much rather see the money go to true green alternate energies such as wind and solar ... especially solar. I want to build a hobby/woodworking shop in my backyard, and I would like to heat it with a solar driven radiant floor heating system. I thought for sure that there would be some form of subsidy or tax incentive for doing this, but not a chance. I can get a subsidy for installing energy efficient windows, adding more insulation, etc., but there's no money to encourage home owners to develop solar energy to heat their homes. What a lot of political crap.

[mykalberta]

I guess on this Forum its damned if you do damned if you dont.

The whole push is reducing carbon emissions because of Kyoto and now the mainstreams media stance on it. Kyoto cares about one thing and that is carbon emissions. Kyoto doesnt care about lake pollution or anything else so the push is to reduce carbon emissions.

Yes its not as efficient as oil but who cares. The only think people care about seems to be Kyoto so if biofuel gets us there then so be it. Getting oil from Leduc #1 wasnt very efficient but they didnt stop there, there is a learning curve from such things.

The big reason behind all these anti biofuel studies is they dont like the idea of wealthy countries paying more for bread and the like and poor countries not affording wheat.

MYK

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

I guess on this Forum its damned if you do damned if you dont.

Don't really get this comment. The ONLY benefit of biofuels is that it is renewable in the sense that we can sacrafice our farmland to fuel our cars.

It requires more energy to make the biofuels then get out of it, at best it is carbon neutral depending on the power source used to make the biofuel. There is not a commercially viable biofuel plant in the world and to convert the world automobiles to biofuel i have read that it would take the conversion of over 50% of our arable land, like theres not enough starving people in this world. Given those facts how can you possibly think that biofuels are a good idea?

and incase you havent noticed, people in this forum couldn't give a huck about Kyoto as pretty much everyone has seen through the farce it is.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Isn't the main point of biofuel to more efficiently use waste organic products as energy and reduce dependency on other raw forms of energy (ie oil)?

What are the environmental benefits (supposedly) of biofuel? The name 'biofuel' certainly sounds green enough. Is it? Anyone?

As I uderstand it (and Hulkrogan is alluding to this) is that in order to grow large amounts of corn or wheat to run a biofuel refinery, you need a massive amount of crop space. In order to attain a profitable yield on a crop that large you're going to need large amounts of fertilizers, which are derived from oil.

In essence, once you factor in transportation, refinement and cultivation (all of which use oil) you're better off using gasoline than biofuel.

[Flames89]

Originally Posted by Dan02

It requires more energy to make the biofuels then get out of it, at best it is carbon neutral depending on the power source used to make the biofuel. There is not a commercially viable biofuel plant in the world and to convert the world automobiles to biofuel i have read that it would take the conversion of over 50% of our arable land, like theres not enough starving people in this world. Given those facts how can you possibly think that biofuels are a good idea?

The following thread had a pretty good discussion on alt energy:
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=46514

As far as I understand it, there are two main sources of biofuel: corn/food-stuffs and cellulosic

1. Corn ethanol is a subsidy grab. I do believe in the study that concluded that it uses more energy than delivers (by T. Patzek). Corn also requires a large amount of fertilizer which is harsh on the soil.

2. Other food-stuff biofuel - canola oil is used by a firms like Milligan biotech to produce a powerful biodeisel. This makes more sense than corn. Even moreso, there is the Jatropha plant, that apparently is even better, as it does not have to take up valuable farming land in order to grow.

3. Cellulosic ethanol. This is taking woodchips, waste foodstuff, some even say garbage to make a biofuel. There are varying degrees to the success rate of each. The "ideal" cellulosic process is not yet completed, and may take a long time - however, differing processes in place now can make a difference.

So leaving Corn Ethanol out of it, I think Biofuel makes sense. However, governments have it wrong. It should not be billed as a REPLACEMENT for oil. Hell no. However, it is another form of energy we should add into the mix. Wood flooring companies should be buying the small plants to attach to their factory so they can use their waste for more energy to reduce their load on the grid. See Dynamotive's plant at West Lorne

As for commercially viable - almost any source is viable depending on the government's incentive system. Exploreco gas wouldn't be so viable without the exploration tax credits, so the same goes for the other sources - the problem is that the govt is slow to bring in the dynamic systems we would need for fear of pissing off other groups of voters.

[octothorp]

The full report actually encourages biofuel development. Just not in developed western nations, and certainly not in the american corn industry, which is probably one of the most misguided directives in agriculture ever. But development of sensible biofuels in third-world countries with appropriate climates can help diversify agricultural markets in those countries. The key is that in order to be successful, they also need to refine the fuels there, rather than export them first.

[RougeUnderoos]

They ran a story on the BBC news today about how pasta prices in Italy are going to jump by 20% due to all this biofuel business. Something to do with more sunflower crops (and less wheat) and subsidies for farmers growing them. They had some jolly Italian farmer yakking in some language that didn't sound like English about how it was such a great deal for him.

They also mentioned a spike in beer prices in Germany and tortilla prices in Mexico.