Racial profiling charges aimed at clubs

[octothorp]

the link is to http://jerks? I think maybe you put your title in the link-field and your link in the title-field.

[@theCBE]

Its about time somebody stepped up ... Racial profiling has been growing at Calgary Clubs so much over the last few years

The determining factor for going to a club used to be where ever the party was going to be... now its wherever we can get in...

If its possible Edmonton Clubs are even worse offenders.. I actually had a bouncer admit to us they weren't letting us in because of the colour of our skin at a Club in Edmonton .... "We had some trouble with your type last night, your not getting in here for a while. but don't feel to bad we're not letting in asians either"

AND WE WE ON THE GUEST LIST !!!

[octothorp]

I'm more or less atheist, but the one thing that makes me want to believe in heaven is the thought of Vickers standing before the pearly gates and being run down by St.Peter on everything from his shirt to his ethnic background.

It's a good article, and I don't think it would come as a suprise to anyone. Despite some great multi-cultural aspects to Calgary, there's still a strong racist WASP sentiment, and Vickers' places seem to attract that crowd. It's beyond me why anyone would want to go to these places. If I was out with friends and we were denied entry to Tanta, I'd secretly be very relieved.

[Tron_fdc]

Yeah, but where do you draw the line? I have lots of ethnically diverse friends, and I can't remember ever being denied entrance unless one of them was acting like a boob. Trouble makers are trouble makers, and as far as I can tell being a dick crosses over just about every race/gender/religion I have ever come across. If he was simply standing in line and was denied entrance fine. I see the problem. However, if he's standing in a crowd of people harassing others in the line, acting like a prick does it matter what race/religion he may be? If I own the bar he still ain't getting in.

In my experience, have heard all of these:

- you're wearing skate shoes
- your jeans are too baggy
- your jeans are torn
- you don't have shoes with black soles
- you're not 25
- you're not female
- you're WAAAAAY too drunk to get in here. Go to the Ship.

So while I understand that saying "you're not white you can't come in" is plain racist, wouldn't "you're not 25 or you're not female" or to some extent "you dress in skate clothes" be discriminatory? Can I sue Vickers too???

I guess the easy solution is to simply not go to sh*t bars like Cowboys or the Drink (or hire an arsonist and light 'em up, whichever comes first)

[Tron_fdc]

On a bit of a side note (maybe Troutman can answer this one):

If someone owns a bar/club/cafe whatever, do they have to let whoever comes around into the establishment? Or does it have to be private (as in paid members only) to pick and choose who gets in?

I'm just kinda curious, cuz I REALLY want to golf the Glencoe....

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Yep, seen enough of this profiling myself. What's happened locally is that the Palace and Skybar were known as being "brown" & Asian bars respectively. When they both shut down I think the other bars in town didn't necessarily want that crowd migrating to their places, hence the "oh, it's a private party BS" to bar the gates.

Had this happen to friends of myself. One of them purposely tested this as they sent the white friends of their group in ahead and they got in no problem. (This was at the Mynt - With their 3 foot wide main staircase to cover 3 floors I always expect to read about some German style disco fire that incinerates 200 about this place). The brown guys in their group got turned away of course.

There is a train of thought amongst bar owners rooted in economics that partially drives this discriminatory policy. Fact is many Asians can't drink a lot of alcohol as the lack of a enzyme to process the alcohol makes them cheap drunks, and not much is bought - reducing bar profits. Both groups tend to use a bar or club as a place to hang out rather than get blasted and spend gobs of money - which of course bar owners dislike. Add to that the alleged gang connections and what not and suddenly bar owners would rather not have this group in there....

I think Victor Choy owns a few establishments (The Whiskey I think...) and I believe he uses similar policies...

That's why I try not to support any of these places with my moolah.... that and I'm not 19 yrs old anymore... by a longshot...

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by plett22@Sep 2 2004, 09:03 AM
If someone owns a bar/club/cafe whatever, do they have to let whoever comes around into the establishment? Or does it have to be private (as in paid members only) to pick and choose who gets in?

I'm just kinda curious, cuz I REALLY want to golf the Glencoe....

You've got it right. If a bar/club/cafe is open to the general public (ie anybody can walk in off the street and have a drink) the usual rules of non-discrimination apply. Hence the brewhaha with Vickers et al.

However, if you are a private club who's access is limited to members only, then yes, they can refuse admittance to the general public. The catch is that theoretically you can't refuse membership on the usual discriminatory measures (race, sex, etc) but this area gets a little more foggy. A lot of golf courses run into this issue not letting in women. Usually, there's a stupid equity membership component to this - $25,000 is the usual fee to join a golf club here. Just think about the old boys clubs here in town (ie The Petroleum Club, Ranchmans (not no the one on Mac Trail)) this is exactly what they do.

So really if a club really wanted to have the best clientele and still make money, what they would do is have it "members only" and sell memberships so that Joe Q couldn't get in off the street. They could vette their members extensively based on behavior and criminal history and connections and have them post performance bonds.

But then again, what fun would a bar like this be? I think the Banke tried this back in the 90's or something and went under after that Korean girl got the crap kicked out of her in the washroom.

Yeah - I really want to Golf the Glencoe too... Any members here want to take plett22 and me out for a round?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

I'm not denying that this happens on occasion, but come on. Just because they aren't letting you in doesn't mean they are racist.

The article gives the example of the girl who couldn't get in and the bouncer told her 25 and over but she had white friends inside who were under 25. Well guess what, if you go to Tantra early enough it's easy to get in no matter how old you are, you get there late and you're gonna hear the 25 and over speal.

I've been to Vicker's bars plenty of times with friends who are black, brown, and asian (presumably the groups they are trying to keep out) and guess what, the only times we've had a problem getting in is when it's packed. When it isn't, they don't care how old you are or what kind of shoes you have on, they can't affored to pick who goes in, but when it gets busy, they are gonna be full regardless, so that's when they bust out the over 25, or good shoes rules.

[Cube Inmate]

The excuse I've heard for rejecting (particularly) Asians is that "I'm not sure that this photo is you," followed by the bouncer asking for more and more photo ID. If it's not racist to imply that all asians look alike, I don't know what is.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by Cube Inmate@Sep 2 2004, 03:28 PM
The excuse I've heard for rejecting (particularly) Asians is that "I'm not sure that this photo is you," followed by the bouncer asking for more and more photo ID. If it's not racist to imply that all asians look alike, I don't know what is.

The Palace used to have a sign up demanding 4 (I think) pieces of government issued ID. Since most of us only have drivers licences, they'd selectively reject people this way - at least when they were popular enough to generate line ups...

I'd like to see that place become a sports bar myself.... Great venue... imagine the big screen / projector possibilities.... bad parking though.

[Cube Inmate]

Interesting quote from Vickers in that story...

"I don't want to have Ceili's customers over at Coyotes. I don't want to mix the age groups."

Wow...what a stupid thing to say. So the bouncers are going to say, "you're too old to be here...why don't you go over to Ceili's!"

[BlackArcher101]

Can anyone explain why dress codes are the way they are?
Like the black sole thing? Who the heck cares what kind of shoes you are wearing.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101@Sep 2 2004, 09:43 PM
Can anyone explain why dress codes are the way they are?
Like the black sole thing? Who the heck cares what kind of shoes you are wearing.

Who knows. Maybe black soles leave bigger scuff marks on foreheads???

Wehn I was in Australia they were total shoe NAZIS. Black soles only, no steel toes, no skate shoes/tennis shoes, super strict dress codes. It sucked being a backpacker with no money, 1 pair of skate shoes, no pants and no collared shirts.

On second thought....maybe I was being "profiled" cuz I had no money to spend on liquor

[RogerWilco]

All that I can say is that I stay away from trendy bars as much as possible. Some times with work functions I have to go to some of these places but I get out as fast as I can. Give me a good dive any day. That is where you meet real people and can meet all kinds of great people. If you wish to meet a group of butt kissers and fake people go to any of Vickers hot spots, if that is your crowd you will fit right in.

[BlackEleven]

Originally posted by Montana@Sep 3 2004, 01:54 AM
All that I can say is that I stay away from trendy bars as much as possible. Some times with work functions I have to go to some of these places but I get out as fast as I can. Give me a good dive any day. That is where you meet real people and can meet all kinds of great people. If you wish to meet a group of butt kissers and fake people go to any of Vickers hot spots, if that is your crowd you will fit right in.

Couldn't agree more.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Am I the only one that doesn't really think that this is a racist practice but rather one which is done in order to uphold the security of the club. And before anyone jumps on me I know that the huge majority of minority groups, whether they be Asians, African-American/Canadian (black), Native or South American are not gang members and all of that stuff. However there are problems with those gangs in Calgary and in Edmonton (Vietnamese games in particular). It is quite bad for business to have stabbings and murders occuring at the clubs. So what is the best way that one can deal with this issue, in the owners of the clubs opinion it would involve limiting the number of minorities that come in. Does that mean that he is racist and hates minority groups, well there are some people that could see it that way, however in my view it is done in a way which promotes security in the club. Sure some people are barred from entry, but as the old saying goes, a few rotten apples ruin the bunch, I see this being no different.

[Ozymandias]

I think the owners are looking like the victims in this one, although under a different light. I'm sure they are guilty for racist measures used by their bouncers, but if your club has had a problem with ethnic gangs in the past, why does refusing them entry immediately brand them as discrimatory / racist? They're protecting themselves and their patrons by not allowing troublemakers in. These groups come in all different shapes and sizes, especially in a cultural mosaic like Canada, so why does it have to be racist if someone isn't let in? The article in the Herald bugs me because this guy thinks because he's of a ethnic minority, he's being chastized. Maybe he's not wearing nice black shoes? Maybe his dress isn't up to par? Maybe he's a line skipper? Who knows. Crying foul because of racist assumptions, even after getting into four of the five bars he tried to enter is silly. I have no sympathy for people like this when he's gained access to 80% of the bars he tried.

He also complains of caucasians getting in no problem while he was outside arguing with the bouncer. That may be true, but did it ever occur to him that women get in alot easier than guys do at some places? I'm sure the majority of patrons who passed him were women, and they get let in all the time while males have to wait. Alot of them even just walk in with the grace of the bouncers, avoiding the line altogether. I'm also sure he probably agitated the bouncer by arguing with him and wasting his time. For a guy who obviously enjoys the bar scene, he sure isn't making a case for himself by p*ssing off the bouncer - any good patron knows that. And this could happen to anybody or any color!

No sympathy.

[Cube Inmate]

Holy crap guys (Mustard and Ozy...)

Pretty stupid arguments...you've just defined the type of racism that's occurring, and said it's OK because there are some minorities who cause trouble.

Originally posted by Ozymandias+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ozymandias)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm sure they are guilty for racist measures used by their bouncers, but if your club has had a problem with ethnic gangs in the past, why does refusing them entry immediately brand them as discrimatory / racist?[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-Maxwell Edison
...in the owners of the clubs opinion it would involve limiting the number of minorities that come in. Does that mean that he is racist and hates minority groups, well there are some people that could see it that way, however in my view it is done in a way which promotes security in the club. Sure some people are barred from entry, but as the old saying goes, a few rotten apples ruin the bunch, I see this being no different. [/quote]

EVEN if these practices are not caused by a hatred for minorities, it's still a violation of the rights of every person who's denied entry because of their colour. I see the points you're trying to make, but put yourself in their skin and think about how you'd feel if you (upstanding citizens, or even non-citizens) were assumed to be a troublemaker simply because of your skin colour! THIS is the point of having a human rights commission (or whatever it is) -- our society has deemed this kind of profiling to be unacceptable.

[Muta]

Originally posted by Cube Inmate@Sep 4 2004, 03:11 PM

EVEN if these practices are not caused by a hatred for minorities, it's still a violation of the rights of every person who's denied entry because of their colour. I see the points you're trying to make, but put yourself in their skin and think about how you'd feel if you (upstanding citizens, or even non-citizens) were assumed to be a troublemaker simply because of your skin colour! THIS is the point of having a human rights commission (or whatever it is) -- our society has deemed this kind of profiling to be unacceptable.

So then is it right to charge young people higher car insurance than older people, simply because they're PERCEIVED to be more of a threat on the road?

That's discrimination in one of its most blatant forms. I've had to suffer because other idiots my age drive recklessly. Is that fair? No.

This is extreme 'profiling' (the term you used). But I guess this is acceptable?

Any kind of discrimination, whether its ageist, sexist, or racist, is wrong.

I don't want to sound like a dink here, but I'm sure if the bouncers had the time to perform life-background checks on EVERYBODY, they'd do it. A dollar is a dollar, no matter who it comes from. Unfortunently, there's not enough time to do that for each potential patron. Perhaps the clubs have had bad experiences with certain groups, and those groups have ruined for the rest them. It's not fair, but it happens all the time in many situations. The insurance example si one right there.

But if people are complaining that they aren't being let into clubs, I want to complain about my car insurance! :P

[Ozy_Flame]

I disagree Cube. I'm caucasian and I've been denied entry to a bar numerous times, and not once did I stop to think it was my skin colour. Could it have been? Possibly. Who knows? Unless the bouncer directly tells you that you aren't allowed in because you're of a certain race, then I see no reason to complain about race discrimination when it could have potentially been another reason as to my denial of entry. What's the point of complaining then? Just move on to the next bar after that. The guy in the article obviously did, and he got into four other bars that night. What is there to complain about in this regard?