I guess with The Captain on sabbatical these memorial threads are up to someone else. Before the day is completely gone I wanted to recognize August 19 as the 70th anniversary of the ill-fated Dieppe raid. It was a dark day for Canada but was instrumental in the success of D Day. These incredibly brave men deserve the upmost respect.
I believe Bell commissioned this ad for the 60th anniversary. It's perhaps the most moving thing I've seen and probably the greatest commercial ever. To all the grandfathers out there, we thank you too.
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From memory I think it was over 5000 canadians started out for this battle and about half didn't return and another 1500 or so were injured. My uncle(who lost 2 school buddys) said the raid was "just a test" and thats why there were so many canadians and not brits. Even today in his 80's he's still choked about it.
There was a 1:30 long special on the History Channel today about the 70th anniversary.
I know this was supposed to be brought up in the special, but wasn't there recent evidence that the Dieppe Raid was conducted in an attempt to provide cover for commandos to get a German coding machine and code books?
If memory serves, even German commanders were confused by the whole ordeal. Unless Mountbatten conducted the whole thing without higher ups knowing, there aren't many good explanations for the attack.
i have just been reading cp staceys history of the canadian armed forces and it is clear like any failiure, in hindsight it shouldn't have been attempted.
The command structure was flawed, the person who planned it (Montgomery and Mountbatten) should have commanded the force.
However take a look at what was happening in the globe at that time - the Soviet Union looked like it was about to collapse (over 2 million men surrendered that summer) and they were screaming for a second front. Needless to say if they fell, only atomic bombs could end the war (and most of europe).
It seemed action HAD to be taken otherwise the entire war could of been lost - Stalingrad didn't really turn nasty for the germans for another 4 months.
The other thing made clear is that there was no option of not commiting the Canadians - remember Canada had been in the war for 3 years and its army had seen almost no action, they were some of the VERY best troops available to the Allies in that theatre and according to Mcnaughton, if not used would have caused MAJOR morale issues to the forces and canadians back home.
sorry for the heavy detail - but i firmly believe those men did not die in vain.
PS that commercial is superb, brought a tear to my eye.
The "Dieppe Uncovered" program last night was really interesting. Kirant is correct. There is new information recently made public which sheds light that the main objective of the raid was intelligence. The journalist did a pile of research and a thorough job connecting the dots. The quick version is:
- British Intellligence, of which Ian Fleming (the James Bond author) was a key member, had established a team of special ops forces to obtain intelligence through special raids on German areas.
- In 1942 The Germans came out with a new Enigma decoding device which The Allies were unable to break. this caused a huge increase in successful U boat attacks which had a major impact on The Allies efforts.
- British Intel discovered Dieppe had a reasonably large German naval HQ and suspected they would have Enigma machines or at least decoding records.
- In order to get in and out with the intelligence without alerting the Germans they devised plans to make the intelligence grab as part of a larger operation to hide the true reason for the attack.
- As for the attack, the objective was for forces to gain control of the entrance to the harbour where a ship containing the intelligence force was to sail in, attack German HQ, collect the intell, and get out while the beach attack was ongoing.
- Due to a rather flawed plan, the harbour was never controlled and the ship was prevented from entering the harbour on repeated attempts.
- As a result of the failure of the attack, it is suspected British Intell floated out a number of reasons for the attack to try and cloud the real reason. It's said even the Germans didn't understand why the raid took place as it wasn't really going to be successful as a way of holding a position on mainland Europe.
I think the new information makes the raid more than just a stupid attack that sent many men to their death. They died for an effort which, had it succeeded, altered the war substantially and potentially saved many lives. I'm not doing the show justice, it's very much worth a watch. Fascinating stuff.
The "Dieppe Uncovered" program last night was really interesting. Kirant is correct. There is new information recently made public which sheds light that the main objective of the raid was intelligence. The journalist did a pile of research and a thorough job connecting the dots. The quick version is:
- British Intellligence, of which Ian Fleming (the James Bond author) was a key member, had established a team of special ops forces to obtain intelligence through special raids on German areas.
- In 1942 The Germans came out with a new Enigma decoding device which The Allies were unable to break. this caused a huge increase in successful U boat attacks which had a major impact on The Allies efforts.
- British Intel discovered Dieppe had a reasonably large German naval HQ and suspected they would have Enigma machines or at least decoding records.
- In order to get in and out with the intelligence without alerting the Germans they devised plans to make the intelligence grab as part of a larger operation to hide the true reason for the attack.
- As for the attack, the objective was for forces to gain control of the entrance to the harbour where a ship containing the intelligence force was to sail in, attack German HQ, collect the intell, and get out while the beach attack was ongoing.
- Due to a rather flawed plan, the harbour was never controlled and the ship was prevented from entering the harbour on repeated attempts.
- As a result of the failure of the attack, it is suspected British Intell floated out a number of reasons for the attack to try and cloud the real reason. It's said even the Germans didn't understand why the raid took place as it wasn't really going to be successful as a way of holding a position on mainland Europe.
I think the new information makes the raid more than just a stupid attack that sent many men to their death. They died for an effort which, had it succeeded, altered the war substantially and potentially saved many lives. I'm not doing the show justice, it's very much worth a watch. Fascinating stuff.
Near the end of the special the mentioned that the Canadian troops arrived 17 minutes late, and by that time they had lost the element of surprise. They were supposed to arrive on the Blue Beach in the predawn hours, and work their way west toward the mouth of the harbour, clearing guns and battlements along the way. This was supposed to clear room for the HMS Locust (The British ship with the commandos on it) to enter the harbour.
Near the end of the special the mentioned that the Canadian troops arrived 17 minutes late, and by that time they had lost the element of surprise. They were supposed to arrive on the Blue Beach in the predawn hours, and work their way west toward the mouth of the harbour, clearing guns and battlements along the way. This was supposed to clear room for the HMS Locust (The British ship with the commandos on it) to enter the harbour.
Who is in charge of naming these ships?
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thats interesting about the enigma plan, the official history keeps mentioning the capture of a german HQ as essential PLUS the capture of german barges in dieppe.
The raid also drew the luftwaffe into a massive battle, a key aim that Churchill mentions repeatedly at this time as the only way to help the Soviets.
The plan was never to stay on the mainland for more than 6 hours - it was to establish a perimeter around the town and destroy or take back as much as possible.
Certainly the 'things we learnt for D-Day' was used as an excuse, the worst part was at the time an American journalist spread the lie that the Canadians insisted on attacking the place frontally and that Canadian generalship was 'bankrupt' - a load of tosh of course
just reading over the details of that programme it still doesn't seem operation jubilee was conducted JUST to grab an enigma machine.
It makes it more palatable perhaps (and good TV)
It must have been one of many objectives that went wrong.
That commercial makes me physically ill. Even if you aren't immune to the cheezy phoniness of the whole thing, it's still a company exploiting Dieppe to sell cellular phones.
I might watch this on Friday if I'm home. I read a book on Dieppe when I was kid, and I was shocked that they had a guy who was Royalty running things. Now I'm older and I know more about the class system in the British Military, but it still makes me angry. That guy shouldve been the governor of the Gambia, not planning a major military operation using his 'subjects' as cannon fodder.
Dieppe is probably the best example of why those wars were a waste, esp from a Canadian point of view. Prince Louis got his comeuppance though, from an IRA bomb.
Dieppe is probably the best example of why those wars were a waste, esp from a Canadian point of view. Prince Louis got his comeuppance though, from an IRA bomb.
WWII was a necessary war. The soldiers who had lost friends and endured he1l knew it when they found the death camps. Thank God for those fine men and women. The cost was huge but that evil menace had to be eradicated, no matter the cost. It had to be done!
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If they take the Enigma won't the Germans know they took it and alter codes?
I heard it mentioned but I didn't catch it.
Ultimately, the Allies got aboard a disabled German submarine in the middle of the Atlantic and nabbed an Enigma machine before the crew could scuttle the sub. A perfect nab and the Germans had no idea it had happened. It was one of the great Intelligence coups of WWII and even as their subs began disappearing in staggering numbers, the Germans couldn't believe it was because the Allies knew exactly where to look for them.
I agree that nabbing an Enigma on land would need something similar to cloud its disappearance, like blowing up the hotel and burying everything in rubble.
I watched the Dieppe documentary last night and while a sometimes cheesy melodrama in its presentation, the information itself was very important and interesting. Good job by the historian to flesh all that out.
Cowperson
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WWII was a necessary war. The soldiers who had lost friends and endured he1l knew it when they found the death camps. Thank God for those fine men and women.
My one grandpa was part of the landing force that stormed Dieppe. He was in the second wave, that at least got out of the boats. He said the bullets flying by were so thick overhead they only had time to hit the sand, and anyone that stuck their head up as ripped to shreds.
He survived (obviously), was captured, and spent the next three years in a German POW camp before coming home.
Unfortunately he passed away when I was about ten years old and I was too young to really understand how incredible that story is.
My one grandpa was part of the landing force that stormed Dieppe. He was in the second wave, that at least got out of the boats. He said the bullets flying by were so thick overhead they only had time to hit the sand, and anyone that stuck their head up as ripped to shreds.
He survived (obviously), was captured, and spent the next three years in a German POW camp before coming home.
Unfortunately he passed away when I was about ten years old and I was too young to really understand how incredible that story is.
Very interesting. It's cool hearing about people's relatives with combat experience. My Grandfather also served in WWII. He was part of the PPCLI, and took part in the liberation of the Netherlands in 1945. I don't believe he experienced any combat first-hand though.
Very interesting. It's cool hearing about people's relatives with combat experience. My Grandfather also served in WWII. He was part of the PPCLI, and took part in the liberation of the Netherlands in 1945. I don't believe he experienced any combat first-hand though.
doesn't change the fact that he had the balls to be there, don't be less proud.
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Dieppe 70 years
