Should Alberta separate?

[Fire]

I have never been in favour of separation but if the Liberals get voted in as government in the next election I would vote Yes to separate. I think maybe more people would feel like me. A liberal win could lead to Quebec separation and if that was the case then it's just a matter of time before other provinces to the same.

What benefit does Alberta have to stay in Canada if their political views are ignored? We give billions of dollars to the welfare provinces and what do we get for it? We get Ontario to tell us who will be the next government. Well thanks.

I'm interested how other Albertans would vote in a separation referendum if the Liberals form the government again?

King Ralph sounds a lot better than being lead by the liberals.

[Resolute 14]

If the Liberals are voted back in, then I would definitely be in favour of it.

Of course, whether I would vote for a seperatist candidate in an election would depend on the party's entire platform.

[MarchHare]

A liberal win could lead to Quebec separation and if that was the case then it's just a matter of time before other provinces to the same.

How would a Conservative win affect Quebec? Last I checked, they were even less popular than the Libs in la belle province, and in their variour Reform/Alliance/CPC incarnations they've failed to elect a single MP there.

[Sylvanfan]

Not having an ocean border or major seaway to ship goods we'd be left as a land locked province. We'd be forced to pay tariffs to ship anything out of our country big time which would hinder trading. Quebec has a major playing card in the St.Lawrence seaway going right through their province. Personally I'd be against the idea of separation as it does seem a bit radical. The fact is right now things are great in Alberta because Oil is unstoppable. But if that was to have a downturn than what do we have to fall back on? Ranching and Farming are dying industries in this province. Tourism will never generate close to enough money, and Forestry and Mining aren't particulary huge industries here. Also don't forget that one huge benefit to being in Canada is that we can attract skilled labour from 9 other provinces who heavily foot the training bill for this labour. If Alberta is an entirely different country than that welder from B.C. who we need to go work up in Fort Mac might have some reservations. Sure Alberta gets what would seem the short end of the stick, but I'd still rather see us remain part of Canada. In fact government wise having a Liberal minority trying to appease a Conservative opposition is better than having a conservative minority that gets trampled on by three other parties.

[the_only_turek_fan]

What benefit does Alberta have to stay in Canada if their political views are ignored? We give billions of dollars to the welfare provinces and what do we get for it? We get Ontario to tell us who will be the next government. Well thanks. blink.gif

I agree totally with that.

As for seperation, I am not so sure if thats a good idea.

One day when the Oil runs out in Alberta, we will need someone to step up and help us out.

And these provinces that are on the recieving end of Alberta Oil dollars right now better step up.

[MarchHare]

What benefit does Alberta have to stay in Canada if their political views are ignored? We give billions of dollars to the welfare provinces and what do we get for it? We get Ontario to tell us who will be the next government. Well thanks.

Yes, it's so completely unfair and undemocratic that a province with 40% of Canada's population gets 40% of the representation in Parliament while poor Alberta's share is only 10%, seeing as only 10% of Canadians live in this province.

[metallicat]

I can't see myself ever being in favour of seperation, and I am glad to know that the biggest seperatist party in Alberta has such a small percentage of the popular vote that it isn't even on the radar. I love Canada too much, and would take a Liberal government over seperation. Of course, I would rather the criminals don't ever get elected again, but I still don't want to become a soveriegn nation.

[Agamemnon]

Even if the Conservatives were elected, I'd still want to stay with Canada. It'll be a great country long-term, I think our collective potential is fantastic.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't know if I would be in favor of seperation as much as I loathe the Liberals. But I would be in favor of jacking up our oil prices to the rest of the country, and forcing Canada to pay a premium for our resources.

I would also be in total favor of using the supreme court if the Kyoto accords are implemented as they will do harm to Alberta's economy and the Liberals are also talking about us burdening a unfair share of its implementation.


Yes, it's so completely unfair and undemocratic that a province with 40% of Canada's population gets 40% of the representation in Parliament while poor Alberta's share is only 10%, seeing as only 10% of Canadians live in this province.

If its a federal government then it has to take into account Western and Alberta concerns and not completely put Ontario and Quebec's concerns over top of our needs. Otherwise you might as well just call Canada a Ontario dominated government.

And while elections may be based stupididly on rep by pop, you can't base running the country on that.


In fact government wise having a Liberal minority trying to appease a Conservative opposition is better than having a conservative minority that gets trampled on by three other parties.

Thats the problem, its never going to happen as we can see now. the Liberal's have never even tried rapproachment with the Conservatives, instead taking the opening pop shots at the Conservatives in the event for the election.

ie

press - will you try to work with the conservatives over the possibility of a vote of non confident

Liberals - Those evil conservative bas**rds are trying to privatize health care while carting homosexuals off to consentration camps.

Also the Liberals were totally in favor of opening our wallets to appease the wack jobs in the NDP. Trading tax cuts for more stupid and un neccesary spending in order to keep thier grip on power.




I would be all in favour of Alberta pulling a Quebec and start demanding favored status in exchange for staying in the confederation.

[Thunderball]

Originally posted by the_only_turek_fan@May 1 2005, 10:45 AM
What benefit does Alberta have to stay in Canada if their political views are ignored? We give billions of dollars to the welfare provinces and what do we get for it? We get Ontario to tell us who will be the next government. Well thanks. blink.gif

I agree totally with that.

As for seperation, I am not so sure if thats a good idea.

One day when the Oil runs out in Alberta, we will need someone to step up and help us out.

And these provinces that are on the recieving end of Alberta Oil dollars right now better step up.

If history has taught us anything, the only people that will help Alberta in an economic downturn are Albertans.

Alberta is rapidly diversifying its industries to include telecommunications, manufacturing, aerospace, finance, and computers. By the time Oil runs out, the sheer amount of money spent on diversification and low taxes will guarantee a sufficient amount of industry to keep Alberta prosperous... not like it is now, but more than sufficient.

Ideally, I'd love to see Alberta, BC and Saskatchewan, (maybe with Yukon and NWT) pick up their marbles and go home. That country would be more viable than the sum of its parts right now, and would definitely be a good move for all involved.

That being said, if Alberta wanted to go alone, I'd probably support that too. We do the vast, vast majority of our trade north-south, and wouldn't have a major need for a port. Should we need one, the Americans would probably come to bat for us in exchange for a nice oil and gas deal.

Of course, if Canada just overtook some massive reform, brought in an equal American-style Senate, limit of term for PMs, undertook an increase of devolution of powers to the provinces, and lowered taxes for everyone (including the rich *gasp*) then we wouldn't need to even talk separation, but hey, this one is never gonna happen.

[Flame On]

Where does that mentality end though? Edmonton has liberal mp's so what, when they don't get the election results they want how long before they split from your glorious new country of Alberta? What a laughable approach. Seems like sour grapes to me. My votes don't ever mean anything in my province cause it's so right wing but I'm not up and hauling out of here, I'm trying to work with it.
As for Liberal corruption, when it all comes out it's all just individuals and they should be held accountable and they will. Calling the liberals corrupt because of a few individuals that have broken the law is like calling the all Cons, Neo-Con like, or having hard core US style evangelical attitudes because a few do in the party. Equally foolish.

[MarchHare]

If its a federal government then it has to take into account Western and Alberta concerns and not completely put Ontario and Quebec's concerns over top of our needs. Otherwise you might as well just call Canada a Ontario dominated government.

And while elections may be based stupididly on rep by pop, you can't base running the country on that.

If representation by population is such a stupid idea, how would you do it?

Thats the problem, its never going to happen as we can see now. the Liberal's have never even tried rapproachment with the Conservatives, instead taking the opening pop shots at the Conservatives in the event for the election.

If you weren't so blinded by your seething hatred of all things Liberal, you would have seen that the budget was written in such a manner to get the CPC's support (corporate tax cuts, etc.). It was only after Harper said he was going to try to bring the government down anyway that the Liberals changed it to try to get the NDP to help pass it.

press - will you try to work with the conservatives over the possibility of a vote of non confident

Liberals - Those evil conservative bas**rds are trying to privatize health care while carting homosexuals off to consentration camps.

Please.

Also the Liberals were totally in favor of opening our wallets to appease the wack jobs in the NDP. Trading tax cuts for more stupid and un neccesary spending in order to keep thier grip on power.

See my point above. That only resulted because Harper was so desperate to gain power himself, and the original Conservative-friendly budget fell by the wayside once Harper said he wasn't going to support it afterall.

[MarchHare]

brought in an equal American-style Senate

You want PEI (population: 137,000) to have an equal say as Alberta (population: 3.2 million) or Ontario (population: 12.5 million)?

[Thunderball]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 1 2005, 11:16 AM

If representation by population is such a stupid idea, how would you do it?

If you weren't so blinded by your seething hatred of all things Liberal, you would have seen that the budget was written in such a manner to get the CPC's support (corporate tax cuts, etc.). It was only after Harper said he was going to try to bring the government down anyway that the Liberals changed it to try to get the NDP to help pass it.

Please.

See my point above. That only resulted because Harper was so desperate to gain power himself, and the original Conservative-friendly budget fell by the wayside once Harper said he wasn't going to support it afterall.

The Liberals gave lipservice to the CPC in that budget, and Harper was still willing to support it. Now, add in gay marriage, day care (boondoggle in the making), sponsorship scandal, alliance with the NDP and tell me how any opposition leader in their right mind wouldn't want to take them down?

Point is, if the Liberals wanted to ally with the CPC, they would have never gone forward with attempting same sex marriage, they would have added the Conservative amendments to the budget and gone hat in hand to them to stay in power. Not go begging the NDP for inadequate help.

As for rep by pop, its okay for one level of government. But you need an equal Senate where Ontario can't force the rest to do what they want. Yes, Ontario is the largest province, and the province with the highest population, but they are not the majority of Canadians. An American style Senate would go very far here in Canada, cause suddenly Ontario needs to make some allies, or the West or the East will shoot them down everytime. Thats why the American system works so well, Rhode Island's vote is just as important as California's.

[Thunderball]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 1 2005, 11:19 AM

You want PEI (population: 137,000) to have an equal say as Alberta (population: 3.2 million) or Ontario (population: 12.5 million)?

Yes I do.

PEI is deserving of representation too. They are eclipsed in the lower house, so why not equality in the upper house.

Plus, Alberta, Sask and BC tend to have the same needs and wants. Occasionally, Nfld and Nova Scotia do too... add up all their seats... not nearly enough to make a difference against Ontario and Quebec. Now when its 5 provinces v. 2... they have the room to maneuver in Senate. Quebec would be forced to work with Canada, and I bet they'd find they have friends with similar angst and goals, like Alberta, BC, and Newfoundland.

With all that, the question is why would you be afraid of letting PEI, Alberta and Ontario have equal footing in the Senate?

[flamingchina]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 1 2005, 05:19 PM

You want PEI (population: 137,000) to have an equal say as Alberta (population: 3.2 million) or Ontario (population: 12.5 million)?

No, what we want is a parliment based on population, and a senate that is equal between provinces. It's a balance thing see?

Anyways, I'd probably vote yes on a seperation initiative, although if only to push for more rights for ourselves, ALA Quebec.
If we were to seperate, we'd have to take BC with us, and I'd take Saskatchewan as well without to much worry. The biggest problem with taking NWT is the Arctic ocean needs defending (soonish at least).
Of course we'd be railroaded by BC's liberals then but hey
(I find BC kind of funny actually, they vote commies in for provincial, but Con's the whole way in Federal...)
I think if the liberals do get in again, you'll start hearing more rumbles from Alberta et all about seperation.

[Flame On]

An American style Senate would go very far here in Canada

Of course you'd want to market it better than that, or else people might be able to cry blue murder! That the cons just want to turn us into Americans.

[MarchHare]

The Liberals gave lipservice to the CPC in that budget, and Harper was still willing to support it. Now, add in gay marriage, day care (boondoggle in the making), sponsorship scandal, alliance with the NDP and tell me how any opposition leader in their right mind wouldn't want to take them down?

The alliance with the NDP only occurred after Harper vowed to vote against the budget. Harper didn't vow to take them down because of the changes to the budget.

As for gay marriage, as has been said in numerous other threads, because the Supreme Court has ruled that current marriage laws are unconstitutional, the Liberals only have two options:

1. Change Canada's marriage laws to allow gay marriage.
2. Invoke the notwithstanding clause to continue the status quo.

Doing nothing is not a choice.

As for rep by pop, its okay for one level of government. But you need an equal Senate where Ontario can't force the rest to do what they want. Yes, Ontario is the largest province, and the province with the highest population, but they are not the majority of Canadians. An American style Senate would go very far here in Canada, cause suddenly Ontario needs to make some allies, or the West or the East will shoot them down everytime. Thats why the American system works so well, Rhode Island's vote is just as important as California's.

Newfoundland + PEI + Nova Scotia + New Brunswick + 1 other province = 50%. Is that what you had in mind?

What four provinces are going to align themselves with "conservative" Alberta in order to get 50% support for anything? A senate where each province gets equal representation does nothing to help Alberta. The big winners are the Atlantic Provinces, and especially tiny PEI.

[Edit]
Think of it this way: Alberta currently has 10% of the seats in Parliament, and people here are crying bloody murder. You want to switch to a system where our representation in the senate would be...10%.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally posted by Thunderball@May 1 2005, 11:14 AM
If history has taught us anything, the only people that will help Alberta in an economic downturn are Albertans.

Alberta is rapidly diversifying its industries to include telecommunications, manufacturing, aerospace, finance, and computers. By the time Oil runs out, the sheer amount of money spent on diversification and low taxes will guarantee a sufficient amount of industry to keep Alberta prosperous... not like it is now, but more than sufficient.

Ideally, I'd love to see Alberta, BC and Saskatchewan, (maybe with Yukon and NWT) pick up their marbles and go home. That country would be more viable than the sum of its parts right now, and would definitely be a good move for all involved.

That being said, if Alberta wanted to go alone, I'd probably support that too. We do the vast, vast majority of our trade north-south, and wouldn't have a major need for a port. Should we need one, the Americans would probably come to bat for us in exchange for a nice oil and gas deal.

Of course, if Canada just overtook some massive reform, brought in an equal American-style Senate, limit of term for PMs, undertook an increase of devolution of powers to the provinces, and lowered taxes for everyone (including the rich *gasp*) then we wouldn't need to even talk separation, but hey, this one is never gonna happen.

Alberta is rapidly diversifying its industries to include telecommunications, manufacturing, aerospace, finance, and computers.

The one industry that is bolded is the one that I work in. I cant speak for the others, but I can speak for that one.

We sell Fibre Optic circuits to commerical customers. Lost of them are big oil companies Ex. Shell, Petro Canada, Imperial Oil etc....

Now the Oil business is what drives most of the other industries in Calgary.

Its kind of like a domino effect.

If those big companies didnt generate the revenues that they did they prolly wouldnt be able to afford Fiber Optic Circuits for there Internet and Ethernet connections.

[Thunderball]

Originally posted by Flame On@May 1 2005, 11:29 AM

Of course you'd want to market it better than that, or else people might be able to cry blue murder! That the cons just want to turn us into Americans.

Ha... ain't that the truth!

Yeah, we'd have to figure out a more appealing buzzword for it... like the Triple E... but even that has negative connotation of us "cross burnin', queer hatin', welfare hatin', healthcare hatin' redneck Albertans"