CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by troutman

When Peace Bridge II gets built around 19th St NW, West Hillhurst will become like the communities around McMahon for parking, except instead of 10 nights per year it could be more like 100.

All those areas have permit parking virtually everywhere already.

[stone hands]

Thank you based ndp

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by DirtyMike

Sorry to say but I think it does matter what Edmonton, and the rest of the NHL is doing. Calgary will have essentially the oldest rink in the NHL, which is one indication of our need for a new rink.

Get pissy all you want, but I think Edmonton's rink has done, and will do a lot for their downtown. The West Village should eventually be remediated, and building an arena is one of the options that should be considered. I would highly doubt that that enough condos or office buildings could take up that entire area, so an arena there makes some sense.

But maybe you really like Jeeps and think the dealership and bus station should stay put.

So because other billionaires have fleeced the cities they're in, we should too because, why? The building we're in is old? So what? I think the Saddledome is fine.

This isn't for the fans or the city. Can we please be honest that this is about money for the owners (that they aren't willing to share) and nicer facilities for players? This has nothing to do with the fans, it's only going to cost us more. Oh sorry, we get to pee quicker, a convenience negated by how annoying it will be to get to this new facility with wallets open even wider.

Every time you see a player like Shaw getting overpaid, it just reinforces how ass backwards our priorities are. This city has better things to spend money on that to assist owners in making more money.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by troutman

When Peace Bridge II gets built around 19th St NW, West Hillhurst will become like the communities around McMahon for parking, except instead of 10 nights per year it could be more like 100.

Much of Parkdale/Hillhurst is already permit only, no?

Just went through the slides from King's masterpiece to YYCCC. He can't himself with the "Leave a legacy" stuff, as if this is our chance to be remembered for something. It's a sports arena, Ken.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by DirtyMike

Sorry to say but I think it does matter what Edmonton, and the rest of the NHL is doing. Calgary will have essentially the oldest rink in the NHL, which is one indication of our need for a new rink.

Get pissy all you want, but I think Edmonton's rink has done, and will do a lot for their downtown. The West Village should eventually be remediated, and building an arena is one of the options that should be considered. I would highly doubt that that enough condos or office buildings could take up that entire area, so an arena there makes some sense.

But maybe you really like Jeeps and think the dealership and bus station should stay put.

Edmonton's rink has done, and will do, a lot for their downtown because their downtown needed a lot done for it in a near term time frame.

Our downtown does not need a lot done for it on the west side...yet. The demand is not there to do it well. It will be one day though and that's when the Jeep dealerships should be replaced. That's why the city is choosing to dedicate its resources towards filling out the East Village. It's good city planning. And that's what this project is above all else...a city planning project. It is not simply a sports arena.

[Regorium]

For those that care about data, evidence and economics (and not world class feelings):

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...t-looming.html

Nationwide Arena should finish in the black again this year, but disappointing casino-tax receipts that subsidize the publicly owned arena are forcing its operators to dip into a rainy-day fund to pay for capital projects and leaving its debt unpaid.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Our downtown does not need a lot done for it on the west side...yet. The demand is not there to do it well. It will be one day though and that's when the Jeep dealerships should be replaced. That's why the city is choosing to dedicate its resources towards filling out the East Village. It's good city planning. And that's what this project is above all else...a city planning project. It is not simply a sports arena.

Isn't the city's involvement pretty much complete with East Village? And, how long did it take to plan and execute the East Village infrastructure necessary to attract investment? From what I understand, the CMLC is looking for more work at this point and are raising their hands to step into planning for the West Village. (with or without an arena).

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by RM14

Isn't the city's involvement pretty much complete with East Village? And, how long did it take to plan and execute the East Village infrastructure necessary to attract investment? From what I understand, the CMLC is looking for more work at this point and are raising their hands to step into planning for the West Village. (with or without an arena).

I'm not with CMLC or the City, but I will take the City's own words that it is better to continue dedicating resources (or directing development) to the East Village to mean that the East Village is not complete. I believe others on here more involved (Bunk) have stated the same.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

I'm not with CMLC or the City, but I will take the City's own words that it is better to continue dedicating resources (or directing development) to the East Village to mean that the East Village is not complete. I believe others on here more involved (Bunk) have stated the same.

Really!? You have great faith in city processes which are notoriously inefficient. Actual question, what was the timeline to plan and develop East Village infrastructure?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Much of Parkdale/Hillhurst is already permit only, no?

My block is not permitted. Can I rent out my curb?

[powderjunkie]

Has anyone ever heard anything about what Remington actually wants to do with their land north of Stampede? More condos?

The green line is proposed to go through there - perhaps a nice underground station right at the arena. The parcel between 9 Ave and the CP tracks is short and wide - good for not much more than parking, which would be good as roughly 1/3 of the access/egress would occur on 9th ave - north of the tracks and not bottlenecked as it is now.

Also tunnels and/or overpasses to the arena/trainstation would help link EV (NMC, new library) and Stampede side of things.

It probably wouldn't even be necessary to go south of 11 ave unless they want to do the stadium too, but if they did, there are 8 holdout residences at 11 ave and 5 st SW, an auto service shop and crappy old office building. It's a huge parcel that isn't really ideal for anything...except another large gathering space.

WV is a very attractive, totally blank slate that could be anything. It won't need any help to be great. Stampede to East Village area would actually benefit. I'm all for the city help making it happen there. If Flames want WV, they can pay market value on everything, including property tax as far as I'm concerned.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by RM14

Really!? You have great faith in city processes which are notoriously inefficient. Actual question, what was the timeline to plan and develop East Village infrastructure?

Yes, when it comes to city planning I have more faith in the city than in a hockey team. To believe otherwise would be obtuse. Much like I have more faith in a hockey team to run a hockey team than I do the city. Do you believe the Flames are superior city planners than the City?

Read through the West Village ARP. It is well done.
http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/pd/Documen...illage-arp.pdf

Compare that to the Flames renderings which plunk an arena down on top of Bow and CAD in some fake buildings. It immediately becomes apparent who wants to build an arena and who wants to build a city.

As for timelines, I don't actually know. A phasing strategy is mentioned in the ARP but no specific timelines (unless I missed them). Would need Bunk or someone to comment on that. I've said before though, that even if CalgaryNEXT lined up with the West Village timing perfectly I still think it is a bad plan from a city planning perspective. I want the arena on or near the Stampede for multiple reasons:
-Near a bunch of parking
-On or near two LRT lines (new Green line being one)
-Connection over the train tracks helps the East Village even more
-Nearer existing entertainment districts on 10th and 17th

[Table 5]

Everything CMLC has touched so far has been pretty awesome. Riverwalk, St Patricks Island, the 4th street underpass... it's all really well thought out and executed. http://www.calgarymlc.ca/projects-la...ndingcompleted

I think ideally what would happen is have CMLC do all the master planning and management, have the Flames architects design their building(s) according to those plans, and the Flames themselves focus on what they know best, the hockey aspects.

Ken King can even take credit when it's all done if he wants. Just make sure each step is in the hands of professionals along the way.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Yes, when it comes to city planning I have more faith in the city than in a hockey team. To believe otherwise would be obtuse. Much like I have more faith in a hockey team to run a hockey team than I do the city. Do you believe the Flames are superior city planners than the City?

The hockey team is not trying to plan anything. They have simply presented an image or an idea in its most basic form as a starting point. They are not pretending or attempting to design or develop the buildings surrounding the proposed arena site.

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Read through the West Village ARP. It is well done.
http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/pd/Documen...illage-arp.pdf

I have read this many time times including when it was released. There was an even better version that was hosted on the Sun-Alta community web site that had plans for future West Village that included connection with Sun-Alta.

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Compare that to the Flames renderings which plunk an arena down on top of Bow and CAD in some fake buildings. It immediately becomes apparent who wants to build an arena and who wants to build a city.

Don't take the renderings so literal. As I mentioned above it is simply a very rough concept of what a dense area could look like. They are not proposing or offering to design the surrounding areas.

Originally Posted by Frequitude

As for timelines, I don't actually know. A phasing strategy is mentioned in the ARP but no specific timelines (unless I missed them). Would need Bunk or someone to comment on that.

The East Village plan was approved in March 2005. It took years of planning and design prior to that. The city should most certainly be allocating resources to planning the West Village now, as it will be decade before any of it comes to fruition. East Village should be well over 80% complete by then and Calgary should still be growing and looking to expand dense inner city development.

Originally Posted by Frequitude

I've said before though, that even if CalgaryNEXT lined up with the West Village timing perfectly I still think it is a bad plan from a city planning perspective. I want the arena on or near the Stampede for multiple reasons:
-Near a bunch of parking
-On or near two LRT lines (new Green line being one)
-Connection over the train tracks helps the East Village even more
-Nearer existing entertainment districts on 10th and 17th

-Not everyone drives to the game and people would adapt. to the 2000 less stalls on site. I have not driven to an event at Stampede grounds in 10 years of living here. How do everyone seem attend Stampede so seamlessly with all the parking gone?
-I agree on the double train line access as a benefit.
-What connection over the train tracks?
-Would East/Village & Stampede/BMO, not to mention all the other theaters and library, be putting too much arts and entertainment in the same place? Conceivably there could be 5 separate events going on at the same time with a few block radius?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by RM14

The hockey team is not trying to plan anything. They have simply presented an image or an idea in its most basic form as a starting point. They are not pretending or attempting to design or develop the buildings surrounding the proposed arena site.

But they are proposing a complete re-design of a huge area. I'm not saying they need to do the planning, but their approach so far hasn't been nearly collaborative enough IMO. Years of 'behind-the-scenes' work has actually been nothing. Their half-baked idea should have been taken through back channels first so they could present an integrated concept with the city.

If they wanted to plop their design down on Railtown without much consideration to infrastructure, that wouldn't be so bad..it's fairly obvious what would need to happen to make it work.

The East Village plan was approved in March 2005. It took years of planning and design prior to that. The city should most certainly be allocating resources to planning the West Village now, as it will be decade before any of it comes to fruition. East Village should be well over 80% complete by then and Calgary should still be growing and looking to expand dense inner city development.

As I've said before, the remaining 20% would be perfect for new arena (not sure if Railtown land would really be considered part of EV)?

-Not everyone drives to the game and people would adapt. to the 2000 less stalls on site. I have not driven to an event at Stampede grounds in 10 years of living here. How do everyone seem attend Stampede so seamlessly with all the parking gone?

It's not that seamless. It's also a 14 hour+ event each day, so the access and egress is more dispersed.

-What connection over the train tracks?
-Would East/Village & Stampede/BMO, not to mention all the other theaters and library, be putting too much arts and entertainment in the same place? Conceivably there could be 5 separate events going on at the same time with a few block radius?

The connection that would inevitably be built as part of the arena. I'd say a pedestrian tunnel would also make a ton of sense (linking green line station) given our climate.

Sounds like a vibrant arts and entertainment district to me. We are very piece-meal at the moment and nowhere near 'capacity'. That few block radius is more like 10 blocks x 6 blocks (17 Ave and Macleod Tr to City Hall to Fort Calgary and the river back to current Saddledome). That would include 3 train lines and tons of parking. 4 St SE would need to be better designed to feed onto Memorial though.

[Frequitude]

All good points in the first part of the post. Just want to respond to the above since when it comes down to it I care more about the arena going near the grounds than I do about timing of West Village development with or without an arena.

Originally Posted by RM14

-Not everyone drives to the game and people would adapt. to the 2000 less stalls on site. I have not driven to an event at Stampede grounds in 10 years of living here. How do everyone seem attend Stampede so seamlessly with all the parking gone?

Hence the C Train comment below you agreed with. I was coming at it from a synergy perspective. There is already a bunch of parking on the grounds that will forever be parking due to the need for the grounds to have that space for Stampede. So from a resource allocation perspective, I like the Stampede area because parking already exists so no one needs to spend time, money or energy on building more.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by RM14

-I agree on the double train line access as a benefit.

This reminded me of one more, the walkers. A ton of high rise condos have sprung up near the grounds over the past decade. In addition to the East Village, I like the idea of building it near where people live, eat and play instead of when they might one day live, eat and play.

Originally Posted by RM14

-What connection over the train tracks?

If, and that's a big if, the arena could go on Remington lands there would be an opportunity to build infrastructure to get pedestrians over the tracks and into the East Village. This seems good for the East Village to me and would help bring traffic to drive commercial activity. I just like that idea.

Originally Posted by RM14

-Would East/Village & Stampede/BMO, not to mention all the other theaters and library, be putting too much arts and entertainment in the same place? Conceivably there could be 5 separate events going on at the same time with a few block radius?

Very fair question. Don't forget the Stampede Youth Campus as well. I mean, on the surface I like the idea a lot and the only stumbling block that comes to mind is traffic during the busy times as you highlight. But I fail to see how that is much different than the Saddledome. I guess the additional concerts the Saddledome can't get and 7-10 football games a year more if they try to squeeze the stadium in. Really though, doesn't seem that much more on an incremental basis, no?

[Zarley]

The Remington site won't happen for a number of reasons, but even if it was a feasible site for an arena and stadium site, the additional cost of that land would add $50-$80 million to the project. I would agree that the location is slightly better than the West Village, but not superior enough to justify that additional cost.

[Coach]

I don't really understand the Stampede issue. I suppose it's nice to have everything nice and tight, but other world festivals and theme parks aren't exactly all held in one place. Music festivals, Oktoberfest, Olympics etc.. are all spread across their cities/areas with locations that aren't exactly "convenient". We're talking about a 10 min train ride from the Stampede to WV. If it was a nice enough day, you could even reasonably do a trip through the grounds, walk down 17th for some food/shopping and walk to WV for a concert later on. This isn't some mountain pass that will be an endeavor to cross.

I don't think people leaking out of a concert at a WV stadium vs the Saddledome will be much of a hindrance to Stampede attendance. Would a few more go home? Sure. But anyone that wants to continue to party has plenty of options (Whatever develops around WV, Stephen Ave, train to Stampede). People are acting like these are huge roadblocks to fun.

[rayne008]

Originally Posted by Zarley

The Remington site won't happen for a number of reasons, but even if it was a feasible site for an arena and stadium site, the additional cost of that land would add $50-$80 million to the project. I would agree that the location is slightly better than the West Village, but not superior enough to justify that additional cost.

What are the number of issues why railtown in NG? Genuinely interested.

(I know CSEC does not own the land, which obviously is a huge hurdle in itself)

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Zarley

The Remington site won't happen for a number of reasons, but even if it was a feasible site for an arena and stadium site, the additional cost of that land would add $50-$80 million to the project. I would agree that the location is slightly better than the West Village, but not superior enough to justify that additional cost.

How is that very different than the city giving the land to CalgaryNEXT for free. "Not selling" = "buying" from a cash flow perspective. Now, I don't know what the two values are and yes creosote negatively impacts the WV land value, but I'm willing to bet that when you consider the above plus an assumed relatively lower infrastructure costs on Remington that $50M-$80M could be made up pretty quickly.

It just feels...more right.

(obviously lots of gut feels and assumptions in there but directionally it feels right...)