Toronto Blue Jays - Offseason Thread

[TheAlpineOracle]

If they are going to bring in Bruce, they may as well resign Jose. He's the better hitter from both a contact and power perspective, and they are both equally crap in the field.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I wonder if signing Angel Pagan would be a good move for the Jays.

Pass.

If he comes cheap enough (3M or less) and will sign a 1 year deal I might consider signing him after all other options have fallen through. He had a nice little bounceback year but he's only 1 year removed from slashing .262/.303/.332 with similarly bad defense. To put that into context imagine Kevin Pillar... now imagine Kevin Pillar with less pop and bad defense. Having said that last year he was basically a league average player but I wouldn't bet multiple years on that especially for a guy that will be 35-36 next season.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Hitting 17 solo shots in a row is a sign that the team was skewed too heavily towards swinging for the fences.

... Hitting 17 solo shots in a row is 17 runs. You're saying that 17 runs are a bad thing? It doesn't matter whether you hit three solo shots in a row or go single, single, HR. It's the same number of runs.

I don't think you have an accurate mental image of the Jays... they had the sixth highest OBP in the majors (3rd in the AL), 6th best ISO (3rd in the AL), 6th best pitching in the Majors (2nd in the AL), and MLB average fielding. Folk ought to stop thinking that the 2016 Jays were some one trick pony... they weren't. They were actually a very well rounded team.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Everyone of those reasons is the exact reasons I don't want Jay Bruce and are the exact reasons why the Jays needs to move on from their current roster strategy.

Except that the current roster strategy really hasn't been that bad the past two years. I'm fine if they still try to target power guys who'll hit home runs and come with a few strike outs. So long as those guys still produce runs much like EE and JB have.

The thing is that we've seen both extremes in the past two years where the Jays still hit for a reasonable average one year, than couldn't hit for any kind of average last year. Both years still produced a playoff team.

Replacing Edwin or Joey Bats with an Ichiro type bat isn't what they need to do. They need to try and replace that power. It's not like Cleveland added Mike Napoli because they liked his contact numbers. Chicago might still try and squeeze bunt, but the likes of Baez, Bryant, Rizzo, and Schwarber still go up there trying to punish the ball.

The Jays need to get depth guys who are more consistent and productive than Justin Smoak. What really hurt was that the bottom of the order on many nights could go an entire game and hit two foul balls while striking out 8 times. Pillar, Smoak, Upton, Saunders....those are the types of guys they need to upgrade.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Except that the current roster strategy really hasn't been that bad the past two years. I'm fine if they still try to target power guys who'll hit home runs and come with a few strike outs. So long as those guys still produce runs much like EE and JB have.

The thing is that we've seen both extremes in the past two years where the Jays still hit for a reasonable average one year, than couldn't hit for any kind of average last year. Both years still produced a playoff team.

Replacing Edwin or Joey Bats with an Ichiro type bat isn't what they need to do. They need to try and replace that power. It's not like Cleveland added Mike Napoli because they liked his contact numbers. Chicago might still try and squeeze bunt, but the likes of Baez, Bryant, Rizzo, and Schwarber still go up there trying to punish the ball.

The Jays need to get depth guys who are more consistent and productive than Justin Smoak. What really hurt was that the bottom of the order on many nights could go an entire game and hit two foul balls while striking out 8 times. Pillar, Smoak, Upton, Saunders....those are the types of guys they need to upgrade.

I would say they lost out on the world series simply because their power bats were unable/unwilling to adjust. It's really easy to beat up on #4/#5 starters all year. When the only pitchers you're facing in the post season are #1 and #2 guys, you can't have an ego that prevents you from taking a different approach.

Had they been more prone to look for base hits and take what they were given the team might have moved on. Bautista, Martin and to an extent Edwn were constantly striking out or not putting the ball in play enough. That's what hurts you the most in tight series.

Priority number 1 should be to bring in guys that have shown they are able and willing to adjust to these types of situations. I could care less if they are power bats or not. What we all know is the same kind of approach will result in the same end to the season next year.

[Roof-Daddy]

Yeap, I agree with Flatus. Power bats weren't the problem, it's power bats that would mostly only think about power and not adjust. Just too easy for good pitchers to continually get you out in key situations when you show an unwillingness or inability to adjust your approach.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I think there is no better argument for Athism then the fact that Mike Trout is being left to rot on a team that still thinks Jesse Chavez is a starter. No true God would let such a travesty occur.

Bruce is a lefty.

Based on their use of Saunders in the lineup this season, the Jays want a left-handed power guy in the center of the order above all else. Kendry is one, Jay may make two.

[Parallex]

I think you quoted the wrong comment there friend.

Regardless, I have no problem with Bruce's power... it's everything else that comes with the package. My preference would be to get Reddick (.322/.386/.485 vs RHH), only after would I want the team to look into Bruce (.262/.326/.546. vs RHH). Bruce doesn't get on base as well... which is another way of saying he makes more outs and is awful defensively. Reddick isn't great defensively but he's passable and a marked upgrade over the corner outfield defenders (minus Pillar) we had.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I would say they lost out on the world series simply because their power bats were unable/unwilling to adjust. It's really easy to beat up on #4/#5 starters all year. When the only pitchers you're facing in the post season are #1 and #2 guys, you can't have an ego that prevents you from taking a different approach.

Had they been more prone to look for base hits and take what they were given the team might have moved on. Bautista, Martin and to an extent Edwn were constantly striking out or not putting the ball in play enough. That's what hurts you the most in tight series.

Priority number 1 should be to bring in guys that have shown they are able and willing to adjust to these types of situations. I could care less if they are power bats or not. What we all know is the same kind of approach will result in the same end to the season next year.

No.

They lost because they ran into a very hot team. A team that knocked off two of the best offensive teams in baseball with some of the better pitching staffs.

Then, they took the BEST team in baseball to the brink of elimination before losing.

It's the anti-Billy Beane argument all over again. "The Jays can't win in the playoffs because of X"

Nevermind that the season comes down to the winner of a 5-7 game series that can turn on a timely/lucky base hit or bad pitch.

[bluejays]

^ I'd personally argue that they were more than just a hot team. They were a very well built team for the playoffs. The Jays and Sox bats also didn't make any adjustments to their style. For sure the Jays were a really good team - just a little too stubborn to play the "I'm playing my game" card. Getting guys who can adjust to different situations will be really important.

With news that Edwin and Jose didn't accept their QO's, I do think it's pretty much a matter of posturing and holding out for the best deal possible at this point, and when the dust settles, I think Edwin stays. If Boston really really wanted it, they'd have offered top dollar and he'd have signed by now.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

That's what I was expecting. If the Sox wanted EE that badly he'd probably be there already.

I assumed EE was a goner, but now I'm not so sure.

[The Big Chill]

Will EE be happy to play 1st? I thought he preferred DH?

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

Will EE be happy to play 1st? I thought he preferred DH?

According to his agent he's comfortable at 1st base now.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I think you quoted the wrong comment there friend.

Regardless, I have no problem with Bruce's power... it's everything else that comes with the package. My preference would be to get Reddick (.322/.386/.485 vs RHH), only after would I want the team to look into Bruce (.262/.326/.546. vs RHH). Bruce doesn't get on base as well... which is another way of saying he makes more outs and is awful defensively. Reddick isn't great defensively but he's passable and a marked upgrade over the corner outfield defenders (minus Pillar) we had.

Yep. Sorry

I agree. Reddick is a GG and excellent lefty.

I just understand where the jays are coming from.

We can wish for reddick all we want but he needs to sign

[Cappy]

Double post

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeap, I agree with Flatus. Power bats weren't the problem, it's power bats that would mostly only think about power and not adjust. Just too easy for good pitchers to continually get you out in key situations when you show an unwillingness or inability to adjust your approach.

Definitely, you really saw the difference between JD and Edwin/Jose as a result. We need more guys with a hitting approach like JD and less like Edwin & Jose, Bruce fits into the latter category though. His numbers with in clutch situations are terrible, based on the numbers it doesn't look like he changes his approach with two strikes or with two outs.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Definitely, you really saw the difference between JD and Edwin/Jose as a result. We need more guys with a hitting approach like JD and less like Edwin & Jose, Bruce fits into the latter category though. His numbers with in clutch situations are terrible, based on the numbers it doesn't look like he changes his approach with two strikes or with two outs.

I'm taking a look at the stats... they don't bare this theory out, your theory being that Donaldson changes his approach while Bautista and EE don't. Honestly when comparing Bautista and Donaldson it looks more like the opposite is true (that Bautista changes his approach more then Donaldson does).

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I'm taking a look at the stats... they don't bare this theory out, your theory being that Donaldson changes his approach while Bautista and EE don't. Honestly when comparing Bautista and Donaldson it looks more like the opposite is true (that Bautista changes his approach more then Donaldson does).

I think the sentiment here is in playoffs, when the opposition was continually pitching down and away and JD was the only guy to adjust and go opposite field. IIRC JD even voiced his displeasure with guys not adjusting to the way they're being pitched in the Cleveland series.

I'm with you for the most part on this offense, but it's hard to argue that the offense didn't need to make adjustments in that series. The star power of the Jays, IMO, sometimes got in the way of them adjusting and taking what they're being given.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I'm taking a look at the stats... they don't bare this theory out, your theory being that Donaldson changes his approach while Bautista and EE don't. Honestly when comparing Bautista and Donaldson it looks more like the opposite is true (that Bautista changes his approach more then Donaldson does).

The thing about stats in baseball is that you can find a stat that will backup whatever argument you want to make. There's absolutely no way you could watch those playoff series though and not see the difference between the way Donaldson approaches his at bats and Bautista when facing quality pitching. Polar opposites. Donaldson would take what the pitcher or defense would give him. Jose would try to drive it into the stands. No one is saying the Blue Jays have to play small ball, but they have to more players wiling to take what is given to them like Donaldson if they ever want to have a hope of beating a team with excellent pitching in the post season.

Take a look at Donaldson's spray chart and then have a gander at Bautista's. You'll see a very big discrepancy.

[Roof-Daddy]

That hit by Zobrist to drive in the go ahead runs in game 7 of the WS is exactly the type of thing most Jays hitters wouldn't do, and what most of us are talking about right now.

They were working him outside, so he kept back on it and drove it down the opposite line. If that were EE or JB they would have tried to pull it 450 feet and hit a weak GB to shortstop or watched it get called strike 3, and then whined to the umpire.

You need to change your approach when facing really great pitching, because they are going to try to exploit your weaknesses and will make much fewer mistakes in the process.